#REDIRECT == Ratings =={{Rating |rater=Ghostwheel|rating=oppose|reason=I feel that a class should be fairly self-contained, and it's a huge pain to have to sift through a half-dozen different books to find out what a class does, so listing a ton of different feats that you have to read through off the bat is a huge pain and immediately gets a demerit from me as far as the class goes. Next, feats are there for a reason, and you should want to take them not because a class gives them out for free, but because they're good enough to be worth a feat slot. Handing out 3 feats off the bat, even if they're not the greatest of feats, is pretty poor class design IMO, and this goes further by invalidating feats by giving you them for free as "virtual" feats for other feats. While I like me some nice resource systems, the description on how to gain Stunt Points isn't very clear. What do you need to do to get them? Also, assume that players will always be using one of the three feats to automatically gain stunt points, and their effects can be so minor that you might as well always give them stunt points. What do you mean you gain access to a martial discipline "of your own"? That's very unclear wording. "In order to apply a feat to his Stunt Fighter Stance, a stunt fighter must meet all the normal prerequisites for the feat." What?? I'm not going to go any further, because the class is incredibly unclear and I wouldn't even know where to begin to create a PC using this class.}}I didn't answer all of your suggestions yet, but I did make the feats-for-free-at-level-1 less intensive and complicated. I'll clear up how to gain stunt points next. Thanks for the input, and I do hope you update your rating once I address your complaints! --[[User:MadmanFromSpace|MadmanFromSpace]] ([[User talk:MadmanFromSpace|talk]]) 15:50, 7 August 2019 (MDT) Also, with the nature of how feats are, this complaint about having to pour over a bunch of books is true for the regular fighter as well. It is perfectly possible to only choose core feats for this class. I do agree that it is annoying to have to do, but this option is never forced. --[[User:MadmanFromSpace|MadmanFromSpace]] ([[User talk:MadmanFromSpace|talk]]) 15:54, 7 August 2019 (MDT) : Dumpster-diving is a huge problem with the fighter. Just because they made incredibly horrendous mistakes when writing the PHB doesn't mean you should repeat those since that's incredibly poor system design. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 16:07, 7 August 2019 (MDT) :: I'm not forcing any dumpster diving. I'm just adding support from the different sourcebooks. I'll take out the focused weapon features that specify non-core feats and replace them with something else. This is just a homebrew class, not a homebrew system. Those sourcebooks exist, and it would be rather silly for me to not allow options from them that thematically fit, especially since this class will still function without splatbooks. I don't think the rating on a homebrew class is the place to express the downfalls of a system's design and marketing practices that are still continued in editions made 10+ years later. --[[User:MadmanFromSpace|MadmanFromSpace]] ([[User talk:MadmanFromSpace|talk]]) 16:45, 7 August 2019 (MDT) ::: The problem isn't the system as a whole. It's with specific classes. Specifically, this class. "System design" refers to anything that you make within a system. Instead of having a laundry list of feats, grab what you want from those feats and then list ''those'' as things the player can take. Or even better, be a little creative and come up with your own stuff. But having a list of feats that the player needs to look through, potentially pouring over multiple books, is bad design through and through. ::: As for not allowing things from certain books, I think you're beginning to straw man me at this point. I never said not to allow certain books. I said that if players want the feats from those books, they have feat slots just for that. And if you don't think they're powerful enough to be taken as feats, then create upgrades on the wiki.::: As for "marketing practices"... what? Feels like a complete non sequitur. I detailed problems with ''this'' class, said what the problems with it was, and gave a comparison to show how you don't want to repeat mistakes of others, but instead make better articles. Let's stay on point, eh? --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 16:53, 7 August 2019 (MDT) :::: Alright, I think I understand what you mean now. I'm going to repeat in my own words what I think you mean just to make sure we're on the same page, because the last thing I want to do is make logical fallacies instead of having a healthy discussion about the correct implementation of this class. I thought your issue was the fact that there was referenced content from multiple sourcebooks, but now my understanding is that it's bad design to provide a list of feats instead of a list of abilities directly explained in the class description itself as to avoid referencing other material entirely. Yes, you detailed problems with ''this'' class, and that problem was dumpster-diving. I interpreted dumpster diving as "having to look through many different books for options," and not as "sifting through trash to find something worth taking," which is what I ''think'' you mean now. That's why I was saying that I shouldn't be rated lowly, because I thought the issue was simply how many splatbooks there are, and I don't have control over that. My fallacies were not intentional - I know you didn't say they were intentional, but I just wanted to make it clear I'm not trying to derail this conversation or make your points worse than what they actually are. --[[User:MadmanFromSpace|MadmanFromSpace]] ([[User talk:MadmanFromSpace|talk]]) 18:35, 7 August 2019 (MDT) == {{Anchor|Content From Other Users}} == ''If you want to add more options for this class, you may feel free to put it in this section. If I like it enough, I'll link to it on the main article page. If you don't put <nowiki>{{Anchor|(name of your addition)}}</nowiki> on each of your things, I won't be able to link it. I could just edit your content myself, but I kind of have a taboo against that sort of thing. Regardless if I recommend your stuff or not on the main class page, thanks for adding something!'' --[[User:MadmanFromSpace|MadmanFromSpace]] ([[User talk:MadmanFromSpace|talk]]) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (MDT) === {{Anchor|Other Users' Fighter Traits}} === ''Other users may feel free to create their own fighter traits and put them here. Remember to sign your content so people know who made them! There's a commented-out template right below here for you to use.'' --[[User:MadmanFromSpace|MadmanFromSpace]] ([[User talk:MadmanFromSpace|talk]]) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (MDT) <!-- <dl><dd>'''Fighter Traits by ~~~~'''<dt><ul style="list-style:none"> <li>''{{Anchor|Fighter Trait Name}} {{Ex}}/{{Su}}/{{Sp}}/{{Ps}}:'' Description of the fighter trait</li> <li>On the Xth time this trait is taken...</li></ul></dt></dl> --> === {{Anchor|Other Users' Combat Styles}} === ''Other users may feel free to create their own stunt setups and put them here. Remember to sign your content so people know who made them! There's a commented-out template right below here for you to use.'' --[[User:MadmanFromSpace|MadmanFromSpace]] ([[User talk:MadmanFromSpace|talk]]) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (MDT) <!-- '''{{Anchor|Combat Style Name}}''', by ~~~~ : '''Tier 1''':: ''Ability:''<br>: '''Tier 2''':: ''Ability:''<br>: '''Tier 3''':: ''Ability:''<br>: '''Tier 4''':: ''Ability:''<br>: '''Tier 5''':: ''Ability:''<br>--> === {{Anchor|Other Users' Stunt Setups}} === ''Other users may feel free to create their own stunt setups and put them here. Remember to sign your content so people know who made them! There's a commented-out template right below here for you to use.'' --[[User:MadmanFromSpace|MadmanFromSpace]] ([[User talk:MadmanFromSpace|talk]]) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (MDT) <!--<dl><dt>'''Setup Type'''</dt> <dd><ul> <li>Stunt setup 1 </li><li>Stunt setup 2 </li><li>Stunt setup 3</li></ul></dd></dl>--~~~~--> === {{Anchor|Other Users' Stunts}} === ''Other users may feel free to create their own stunts and put them here. Remember to sign your stunts so people know who made them! There's a commented-out template right below here for you to use.'' --[[User:MadmanFromSpace|MadmanFromSpace]] ([[User talk:MadmanFromSpace|talk]]) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (MDT) <!--<dl><dt>''{{Anchor|Stunt Name}}''</dt><dd><ul> <li>'''Cost:''' ? action; ? stunt points </li><li>'''Requirements:''' </li><li>(Description of the stunt)</li></ul>--~~~~</dd></dl>--> == Table Edit Suggestions == Here are some table edits you can copy-paste if you like, replacing the table you have. I've retained the same progressions, to my knowledge. Enjoy. ————Thanks! Went with variant two. - MFS ===Variant 1==={| class="zebra d20"|+<div>{{Anchor|Table: The Stunt Fighter }}</div>Hit Die: d10|-! rowspan="2" | Level! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throws]]! rowspan="2" | Special! rowspan="2" | Fighter Stance Feats! rowspan="2" | Cool Points! rowspan="2" | Battle Fever Bonus|-! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]|-|1st||class="left" | +1 || +2 || +2 || +0| class="left" | Combat Expert, Cool Points, Fighter Discipline, Fighter Stance, Focused Weapons (Weapon Focus)|1||1||—|-|2nd||class="left" | +2 || +3 || +3 || +0| class="left" | Speedy Draw, Special Ability|1||1||—|-|3rd||class="left" | +3 || +3 || +3 || +1| class="left" | Battle Fever, Stuntless Augments|1||2||+1|-|4th||class="left" | +4 || +4 || +4 || +1| class="left" | Focused Weapons (Weapon Specialization)|2||2||+1|-|5th||class="left" | +5 || +4 || +4 || +1| class="left" | Battle Tendency|2||3||+1|-|6th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +5 || +5 || +2| class="left" | Special Ability|2||3||+1|-|7th||class="left" | +7/+2 || +5 || +5 || +2| class="left" | |2||4||+2|-|8th||class="left" | +8/+3 || +6 || +6 || +2| class="left" | Focused Weapons (Greater Weapon Focus)|3||4||+2|-|9th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +6 || +6 || +3| class="left" | Versatile Battle Tendency|3||5||+2|-|10th||class="left" | +10/+5 || +7 || +7 || +3| class="left" | Special Ability, Versatile Focused Weapons|3||5||+2|-|11th||class="left" | +11/+6/+1 || +7 || +7 || +3| class="left" | |3||6||+3|-|12th||class="left" | +12/+7/+2 || +8 || +8 || +4| class="left" | |4||6||+3|-|13th||class="left" | +13/+8/+3 || +8 || +8 || +4| class="left" | |4||7||+3|-|14th||class="left" | +14/+9/+4 || +9 || +9 || +4| class="left" | Special Ability|4||7||+3|-|15th||class="left" | +15/+10/+5 || +9 || +9 || +5| class="left" | |4||8||+4|-|16th||class="left" | +16/+11/+6/+1 || +10 || +10 || +5| class="left" | |5||8||+4|-|17th||class="left" | +17/+12/+7/+2 || +10 || +10 || +5| class="left" | |5||9||+4|-|18th||class="left" | +18/+13/+8/+3 || +11 || +11 || +6| class="left" | Special Ability|5||9||+4|-|19th||class="left" | +19/+14/+9/+4 || +11 || +11 || +6| class="left" | |5||10||+5|-|20th||class="left" | +20/+15/+10/+5 || +12 || +12 || +6| class="left" | |10||10||+5|- class="noalt"| colspan="42" class="skill" |'''Class Skills ([[Skill Points::4]] + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)'''<br/><!--class skills: simply delete those skills which your class does not have as class skills from the complete list below. If you only allow a subsection, such as Knowledge (arcana) (religion), write it like that. -->{{3.5e Skills|Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Perform (Weapon flare), Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope}}|} ===Variant 2==={| class="zebra d20"|+<div>{{Anchor|Table: The Stunt Fighter}}</div>Hit Die: d10|-! rowspan="2" | Level! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throws]]! rowspan="2" | Special! rowspan="2" | Cool Points! rowspan="2" | Battle Fever Bonus|-! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]|-|1st||class="left" | +1 || +2 || +2 || +0| class="left" | Combat Expert, Cool Points, Fighter Discipline, Fighter Stance (1), Focused Weapons (Weapon Focus)|1||—|-|2nd||class="left" | +2 || +3 || +3 || +0| class="left" | Speedy Draw, Special Ability|1||—|-|3rd||class="left" | +3 || +3 || +3 || +1| class="left" | Battle Fever, Stuntless Augments|2||+1|-|4th||class="left" | +4 || +4 || +4 || +1| class="left" | Focused Weapons (Weapon Specialization), Fighter Stance (2)|2||+1|-|5th||class="left" | +5 || +4 || +4 || +1| class="left" | Battle Tendency|3||+1|-|6th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +5 || +5 || +2| class="left" | Special Ability|3||+1|-|7th||class="left" | +7/+2 || +5 || +5 || +2| class="left" | |4||+2|-|8th||class="left" | +8/+3 || +6 || +6 || +2| class="left" | Focused Weapons (Greater Weapon Focus), Fighter Stance (3)|4||+2|-|9th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +6 || +6 || +3| class="left" | Versatile Battle Tendency|5||+2|-|10th||class="left" | +10/+5 || +7 || +7 || +3| class="left" | Special Ability, Versatile Focused Weapons|5||+2|-|11th||class="left" | +11/+6/+1 || +7 || +7 || +3| class="left" | |6||+3|-|12th||class="left" | +12/+7/+2 || +8 || +8 || +4| class="left" | Fighter Stance (4)|6||+3|-|13th||class="left" | +13/+8/+3 || +8 || +8 || +4| class="left" | |7||+3|-|14th||class="left" | +14/+9/+4 || +9 || +9 || +4| class="left" | Special Ability|7||+3|-|15th||class="left" | +15/+10/+5 || +9 || +9 || +5| class="left" | |8||+4|-|16th||class="left" | +16/+11/+6/+1 || +10 || +10 || +5| class="left" | Fighter Stance (5)|8||+4|-|17th||class="left" | +17/+12/+7/+2 || +10 || +10 || +5| class="left" | |9||+4|-|18th||class="left" | +18/+13/+8/+3 || +11 || +11 || +6| class="left" | Special Ability|9||+4|-|19th||class="left" | +19/+14/+9/+4 || +11 || +11 || +6| class="left" | |10||+5|-|20th||class="left" | +20/+15/+10/+5 || +12 || +12 || +6| class="left" | Fighter Stance (10)|10||+5|- class="noalt"| colspan="42" class="skill" |'''ClassSkills ([[Skill Points::4]] + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)'''<br/><!--class skills: simply delete those skills which your class does not have as class skills from the complete list below. If you only allow a subsection, such as Knowledge (arcana) (religion), write it like that. -->{{3.5e Skills|Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Perform (Weapon flare), Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope}}|} == {{Anchor|Determining Balance}} ==When I first made this class, I put it at High balance. Now I'm not so sure if it's still High balance. If anyone could give me their thoughts on what this class's balance level is, I'd really appreciate it. --[[User:MadmanFromSpace|MadmanFromSpace]] ([[User talk:MadmanFromSpace|talk]]) 14:03, 11 August 2019 (MDT)
