Talk:Stunt Fighter (3.5e Class)

Ratings

Blocked Rating

Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.I feel that a class should be fairly self-contained, and it's a huge pain to have to sift through a half-dozen different books to find out what a class does, so listing a ton of different feats that you have to read through off the bat is a huge pain and immediately gets a demerit from me as far as the class goes. Next, feats are there for a reason, and you should want to take them not because a class gives them out for free, but because they're good enough to be worth a feat slot. Handing out 3 feats off the bat, even if they're not the greatest of feats, is pretty poor class design IMO, and this goes further by invalidating feats by giving you them for free as "virtual" feats for other feats. While I like me some nice resource systems, the description on how to gain Stunt Points isn't very clear. What do you need to do to get them? Also, assume that players will always be using one of the three feats to automatically gain stunt points, and their effects can be so minor that you might as well always give them stunt points. What do you mean you gain access to a martial discipline "of your own"? That's very unclear wording. "In order to apply a feat to his Stunt Fighter Stance, a stunt fighter must meet all the normal prerequisites for the feat." What?? I'm not going to go any further, because the class is incredibly unclear and I wouldn't even know where to begin to create a PC using this class.

I didn't answer all of your suggestions yet, but I did make the feats-for-free-at-level-1 less intensive and complicated. I'll clear up how to gain stunt points next. Thanks for the input, and I do hope you update your rating once I address your complaints! --MadmanFromSpace (talk) 15:50, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

Also, with the nature of how feats are, this complaint about having to pour over a bunch of books is true for the regular fighter as well. It is perfectly possible to only choose core feats for this class. I do agree that it is annoying to have to do, but this option is never forced. --MadmanFromSpace (talk) 15:54, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

Dumpster-diving is a huge problem with the fighter. Just because they made incredibly horrendous mistakes when writing the PHB doesn't mean you should repeat those since that's incredibly poor system design. --Ghostwheel (talk) 16:07, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

I'm not forcing any dumpster diving. I'm just adding support from the different sourcebooks. I'll take out the focused weapon features that specify non-core feats and replace them with something else. This is just a homebrew class, not a homebrew system. Those sourcebooks exist, and it would be rather silly for me to not allow options from them that thematically fit, especially since this class will still function without splatbooks. I don't think the rating on a homebrew class is the place to express the downfalls of a system's design and marketing practices that are still continued in editions made 10+ years later. --MadmanFromSpace (talk) 16:45, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

The problem isn't the system as a whole. It's with specific classes. Specifically, this class. "System design" refers to anything that you make within a system. Instead of having a laundry list of feats, grab what you want from those feats and then list those as things the player can take. Or even better, be a little creative and come up with your own stuff. But having a list of feats that the player needs to look through, potentially pouring over multiple books, is bad design through and through.

As for not allowing things from certain books, I think you're beginning to straw man me at this point. I never said not to allow certain books. I said that if players want the feats from those books, they have feat slots just for that. And if you don't think they're powerful enough to be taken as feats, then create upgrades on the wiki.

As for "marketing practices"... what? Feels like a complete non sequitur. I detailed problems with this class, said what the problems with it was, and gave a comparison to show how you don't want to repeat mistakes of others, but instead make better articles. Let's stay on point, eh? --Ghostwheel (talk) 16:53, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

Alright, I think I understand what you mean now. I'm going to repeat in my own words what I think you mean just to make sure we're on the same page, because the last thing I want to do is make logical fallacies instead of having a healthy discussion about the correct implementation of this class. I thought your issue was the fact that there was referenced content from multiple sourcebooks, but now my understanding is that it's bad design to provide a list of feats instead of a list of abilities directly explained in the class description itself as to avoid referencing other material entirely. Yes, you detailed problems with this class, and that problem was dumpster-diving. I interpreted dumpster diving as "having to look through many different books for options," and not as "sifting through trash to find something worth taking," which is what I think you mean now. That's why I was saying that I shouldn't be rated lowly, because I thought the issue was simply how many splatbooks there are, and I don't have control over that. My fallacies were not intentional - I know you didn't say they were intentional, but I just wanted to make it clear I'm not trying to derail this conversation or make your points worse than what they actually are. --MadmanFromSpace (talk) 18:35, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

Content From Other Users

If you want to add more options for this class, you may feel free to put it in this section. If I like it enough, I'll link to it on the main article page. If you don't put {{Anchor|(name of your addition)}} on each of your things, I won't be able to link it. I could just edit your content myself, but I kind of have a taboo against that sort of thing. Regardless if I recommend your stuff or not on the main class page, thanks for adding something! --MadmanFromSpace (talk) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (MDT)

Other Users' Fighter Traits

Other users may feel free to create their own fighter traits and put them here. Remember to sign your content so people know who made them! There's a commented-out template right below here for you to use. --MadmanFromSpace (talk) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (MDT)

Other Users' Combat Styles

Other users may feel free to create their own stunt setups and put them here. Remember to sign your content so people know who made them! There's a commented-out template right below here for you to use. --MadmanFromSpace (talk) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (MDT)

Other Users' Stunt Setups

Other users may feel free to create their own stunt setups and put them here. Remember to sign your content so people know who made them! There's a commented-out template right below here for you to use. --MadmanFromSpace (talk) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (MDT)

Other Users' Stunts

Other users may feel free to create their own stunts and put them here. Remember to sign your stunts so people know who made them! There's a commented-out template right below here for you to use. --MadmanFromSpace (talk) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (MDT)

Table Edit Suggestions

Here are some table edits you can copy-paste if you like, replacing the table you have. I've retained the same progressions, to my knowledge. Enjoy.

———— Thanks! Went with variant two. - MFS

Variant 1

Table: The Stunt Fighter

Hit Die: d10

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Saving Throws			Special	Fighter Stance Feats	Cool Points	Battle Fever Bonus
		Fort	Ref	Will
1st	+1	+2	+2	+0	Combat Expert, Cool Points, Fighter Discipline, Fighter Stance, Focused Weapons (Weapon Focus)	1	1	—
2nd	+2	+3	+3	+0	Speedy Draw, Special Ability	1	1	—
3rd	+3	+3	+3	+1	Battle Fever, Stuntless Augments	1	2	+1
4th	+4	+4	+4	+1	Focused Weapons (Weapon Specialization)	2	2	+1
5th	+5	+4	+4	+1	Battle Tendency	2	3	+1
6th	+6/+1	+5	+5	+2	Special Ability	2	3	+1
7th	+7/+2	+5	+5	+2		2	4	+2
8th	+8/+3	+6	+6	+2	Focused Weapons (Greater Weapon Focus)	3	4	+2
9th	+9/+4	+6	+6	+3	Versatile Battle Tendency	3	5	+2
10th	+10/+5	+7	+7	+3	Special Ability, Versatile Focused Weapons	3	5	+2
11th	+11/+6/+1	+7	+7	+3		3	6	+3
12th	+12/+7/+2	+8	+8	+4		4	6	+3
13th	+13/+8/+3	+8	+8	+4		4	7	+3
14th	+14/+9/+4	+9	+9	+4	Special Ability	4	7	+3
15th	+15/+10/+5	+9	+9	+5		4	8	+4
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+10	+5		5	8	+4
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+10	+5		5	9	+4
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+11	+6	Special Ability	5	9	+4
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+11	+6		5	10	+5
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+12	+6		10	10	+5
Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level) Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Weapon flare) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex).

Variant 2

Table: The Stunt Fighter

Hit Die: d10

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Saving Throws			Special	Cool Points	Battle Fever Bonus
		Fort	Ref	Will
1st	+1	+2	+2	+0	Combat Expert, Cool Points, Fighter Discipline, Fighter Stance (1), Focused Weapons (Weapon Focus)	1	—
2nd	+2	+3	+3	+0	Speedy Draw, Special Ability	1	—
3rd	+3	+3	+3	+1	Battle Fever, Stuntless Augments	2	+1
4th	+4	+4	+4	+1	Focused Weapons (Weapon Specialization), Fighter Stance (2)	2	+1
5th	+5	+4	+4	+1	Battle Tendency	3	+1
6th	+6/+1	+5	+5	+2	Special Ability	3	+1
7th	+7/+2	+5	+5	+2		4	+2
8th	+8/+3	+6	+6	+2	Focused Weapons (Greater Weapon Focus), Fighter Stance (3)	4	+2
9th	+9/+4	+6	+6	+3	Versatile Battle Tendency	5	+2
10th	+10/+5	+7	+7	+3	Special Ability, Versatile Focused Weapons	5	+2
11th	+11/+6/+1	+7	+7	+3		6	+3
12th	+12/+7/+2	+8	+8	+4	Fighter Stance (4)	6	+3
13th	+13/+8/+3	+8	+8	+4		7	+3
14th	+14/+9/+4	+9	+9	+4	Special Ability	7	+3
15th	+15/+10/+5	+9	+9	+5		8	+4
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+10	+5	Fighter Stance (5)	8	+4
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+10	+5		9	+4
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+11	+6	Special Ability	9	+4
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+11	+6		10	+5
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+12	+6	Fighter Stance (10)	10	+5
Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level) Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Weapon flare) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex).

Determining Balance

When I first made this class, I put it at High balance. Now I'm not so sure if it's still High balance. If anyone could give me their thoughts on what this class's balance level is, I'd really appreciate it. --MadmanFromSpace (talk) 14:03, 11 August 2019 (MDT)

Stunt Setup Changes in Consideration

I'm thinking about making stunt setups a bit more powerful/easier to meet, but you only have so many stunt setups known. Also thinking about adding a fourth type of setup called Honor, and grouping the setups by flavor/playstyle instead of by how they're met. Here's what I got so far:
Setups are methods for a stunt fighter to put stunt points in his pool of cool. There are four kinds - Conditional, Honor, Style, and Gamble. You will find some setups synergize very well with each other. This is intentional.

Conditional: At the end of each round, 1 stunt point is added to the pool of cool for every conditional setup met. Conditional setups require no specific action or declaration to be made; you simply are granted the setup if you meet the condition, are conscious, and can take at least one move action or one standard action each round.

• Against The Odds: You are flanked by two opponents. This setup triggers an additional time for every two opponents flanking you beyond the first two.
• Always Prepared: You are holding different weapons/shields in your hands than you were wielding at the end of the previous round.
• Biding Time: You are immobilized, paralyzed, petrified, staggered, or stunned.
• Bored: You are fatigued or exhausted.
• Gritty Endurance: You have less than half of your total hit points.
• I Blow My Nose At You: You are sickened or nauseated.
• Impatience: Your turn is either the last turn or the first turn in initiative order.
• Just Showing Off: You made a full attack action and applied no penalties to your attack rolls from two-weapon fighting, power attacking, etc., but you missed every single attack.
• Luck Runs Out Eventually: A subject succeeds on a saving throw against an effect caused by you, and the saving throw negated that effect on that subject.
• Renovated: You have one or more negative levels.
• Running On Fumes: You have 1 point of ability damage/drain to Strength, Dexterity, and/or Constitution.
• Skin of Your Teeth: You are disabled or dying, yet you are still conscious.
• Survivor's Insight: An opponent landed a critical hit on you this round, or you lost more than 25% of your total hit points this round.

Style: For every X2 Style Setups met in the same round, one stunt point is added to the stunt fighter's pool of cool. These stunt setups grant stunt points immediately as the action required for the stunt setup is completed.

• Bait Them Out: Use a standard action to make a ranged attack roll against a foe when just barely outside the foe’s threatened area.
• Bullieve It: Bull rush an opponent at least 10 feet, or bull rush an opponent as far as possible before slamming them against a wall.
• Bulwark: Take the full-defense action for 2 or more consecutive rounds.
• Disalarming: Successfully disarm an opponent.
• Gonna Take You For A Ride: Move five or more feet while grappling with an opponent.
• (Un)Lucky Day: Roll a natural 20 or a natural 1 on an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw.
• Martial Adept-ation: Use two or more martial maneuvers within the same round.
• Multiarmed: Attack with more weapons in the same round than you have hands. Each two-handed weapon wielded counts as two weapons for this purpose.
• Oopsies: Drop a weapon to avoid an attack of opportunity or avoid being tripped, disarmed, etc.
• Reaving Response: Reduce a conscious opponent to 0 or fewer hit points via an attack of opportunity.
• Ride Ends Here: Knock a foe off of a mount or a similar vehicle, or board a mount or similar vehicle that isn't yours while in combat.
• Skill Junkie: Make two different skill checks with two different skills in the same round - each skill check must require the use of a move or standard action.
• Sunder Vacation: Break an opponent's weapon.
• Ziplineing: Make a ranged attack roll after tying the end of a rope to the object that was shot or thrown.

Gamble: 1 stunt point is added to the pool of cool for every Gamble Setup a stunt fighter makes in a round.

• Catch Me: Provoke an attack of opportunity from an opponent by moving out of a threatened square.
• Dangerous Alone: Hand a weapon over to an otherwise (to your knowledge) unarmed opponent.
• Look Alive!: As a swift action, alert an otherwise flat-footed foe of your presence so they may apply their Dexterity bonus and any dodge bonuses to their Armor Class against your next attack.
• Never Tell Me The Odds: Willingly take disadvantage on an Attack roll (roll 2d20, use the lower roll for the attack roll and ignore the higher roll). Your attack must hit.
• Oh Hey I'm On Fire: While on fire, do not try to put yourself out. The fire deals normal damage to you in spite of any energy resistance, immunity, or other means of avoiding or minimizing damage you may have.
• One-on-One: Forgo any flanking bonuses from flanking an opponent on your next attack.
• Optimism: You successfully make a saving throw against a hostile effect with a duration of instantaneous. This setup triggers an additional time for each saving throw you successfully make.
• Who's Faster?: Provoke an attack of opportunity by making a ranged attack roll with a ranged weapon while in an enemy's threatened square.