User talk:Surgo

Bugs

Please add any new reports of bugs below here.

• A reminder to figure out a solution to doing category exclusion for #ask to eliminate all dpl lists that use |notcategory=, such as on 3.5e Class Ability Components under the Published Abilities listing. --Ganteka Future 02:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

• Non-pretty solution is to just add a new category, like "WotC" or "Published" or even reuse "SRD" (though it's not technically correct) to differentiate user created stuff from other, ending overlap and allowing a simple conjunction to find the proper pages. Since I think that's the only page that suffers like that, I don't think it would be hard to implement.- Tarkisflux 03:23, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I've been asking for this feature in Semantic MediaWiki for over a year. I might hack it in myself. Surgo 13:01, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I made a handy listing of all the remaining dpl using pages: User:Ganteka Future/DrawingBoard3 --Ganteka Future 18:24, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Some of those need updating period, some of those can be converted to just use Category:User. Leave this one to me. Surgo 18:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

• Don't know if this is a bug, but it doesn't look like any of the images from the wiki got ported over. Was this intentional, and if not, when can we expect to see the pictures get transferred? --Ghostwheel 08:30, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Half-intentional. This is the easiest way to deal with licensing issues by far. I'd like properly licensed pictures to be ported though, that might be able to be done automatically when I have time (feel free to add pictures for your own stuff before then though).

• Can we get the [SMW:ON/OFF] hack working over here? - Tarkisflux 07:30, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I thought it was. It's two colons, not one. Surgo 12:58, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't working before, and it still isn't (example). And yes, 2 colons, but then I have to nowiki it so you can see it, and I was feeling lazy. - Tarkisflux 15:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Investigated the issue -- it appears to work fine for properties set by [[Property::Value]], but not for properties set by {{#set:Property=Value}} Surgo 19:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

So, massive template update, or hack to make that work as well sometime? - Tarkisflux 19:55, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll try to fix it in the SMW source. Surgo 20:15, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

• If interwiki links to other wikia sites are supposed to still work, then this is a bug since they aren't right now. If they're not supposed to work, we're going to need to bot fix the canon section's external links (example at bottom of page). - Tarkisflux 01:55, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Get me a list of the desired interwikis we want to work, and I can make it work. Surgo 01:56, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

List:

• forgottenrealms.wikia.com
• eberron.wikia.com
• <stuff that Daranios will need to add since I'm not all that sure what else we're linking to>

• A minor thing; can the Template namespace get subpages turned on? That way pages like Template:Stat Block 2/Spells Known get a breadcrumb trail back to their parent Template page? --MidnightLightning☇(talk) 19:59, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

A Round of Applause

• Sup Surgo. I like the new site. Good work. Listen, you don't get thanked much for all that you do. Comes with the territory, I guess. Whatever the reasons... Thanks. No seriously. Thank you. Speaking frankly, I haven't contributed much to the sites. But what I have, I feel is best shown with guys like you in charge. Makes me feel like writing what I did, meant something. If only to one person, then so be it. I mean, we all know what crappy Admins look like. It's rare to find a good one. Even one as stubborn as you. Heh. ...From one user to another. Good job. And Godspeed. --Jay Freedman 10:38, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

d20 NPCs transition

Hey Surgo, nice place you got here :)

It looks like the d20 NPCs Wikia wiki is pretty dead, as it seems I'm the only one active over there (transition forum post). So, if you're still willing to do some merging of the NPC content from that wiki, I'd love to continue to contribute to it here. The d20 NPCs wiki had d20 Modern, Star Wars, Mutants and Masterminds, and some others, in addition to 3.5e D&D NPCs. I'm really only interested in the D&D 3.5e NPCs personally. So, a few questions:

• Do you think it appropriate to expand the 3.5e NPCs area here with content from the d20 NPCs wiki?
• If so, a simple database dump may not fit with the naming conventions that you have here; what naming convention(s) would be best for that content?
• 

  Pathfinder stat block
  The d20 NPCs had been using their own template based of the DMG2-style stat block, and a "Short" stat block for doing inline, paragraph-style stats. I'd have to look more deeply at your Stat Block 2 template, but things I like about the d20 NPCs variants that I helped develop include allowing a partial stat block (useful if you want to have a "when not raging"/"when raging" block for Barbarians that only shows what changes, or "in wolf form" for werewolves and other shape-shifters), and the look is more literally like what's in the DMG2 (making it easy to skim a stat block if you're used to reading published materials). I also have created a "Pathfinder" style template for my own personal wiki, that I never took over to the d20 NPCs wiki that I could add here, if it's useful. So, should imports from the d20 NPCs wiki be converted to your template(s), or should the template(s) here be updated and convert the NPCs you have here to a new template?
• The d20 NPCs wiki has a DieRoll template (along with the javascript to make it work) that allows die rolling right from the stat blocks; could we add something like that here, for DMs to play NPCs right off the page from a laptop at the gaming table?

--MidnightLightning☇(talk) 13:48, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

In order:

• Yes
• For cleanliness, a merge would be performed by making a "d20npcs" namespace and importing all your articles into that then moving them into their own namespace. I'd probably be up for creating a new namespace, NPC:, to hold the sudden influx.
• I believe the best idea here is to make a new version of Stat Block 2 (with a better name), that's capable of also outputting a short stat block. If you read that template you'll note it's a total mess; I'd like to reimplement it in Winter or Lua to be cleaner. With those languages it should be much easier to have a short form stat block as well.
• I don't see why not.

Surgo 18:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Great! Well, I'll do some work seeing if I can get a customized database export of d20 NPCS that only includes the D&D NPCs. Regarding updating the NPC template, what is the benefit of Winter/Lua over existing parser functions? I can see where the extra Winter functions would be useful for looping and branching, but the only branching the template needs to do is a "if variable is empty", which Mediawiki already has parser functions for. The only real advanced math that gets done is calculating an ability score's modifier if you wanted to do that dynamically, which can be done with parser functions (like this), but might be shorter/cleaner in Winter/Lua?

In thinking about this more, probably the best first steps would be to start with the NPC template, and get the NPCs that are already here updated and working with the new template, and then get a dump from d20 NPCs and integrate them. I took a look around at the existing NPCs you've got here, and I have a few suggestions on them. You and the other editors here have done an excellent job organizing and displaying custom Class, Race, Template, Feat, Spell, etc. content, but it looks like the NPC organization has some room for improvement. My suggestions from an outside perspective are:

• Some of custom Classes pages have sample NPCs (like the Grim class). I'd suggest moving the NPC to their own page, and cross-linking it from the Class page. That way, the semantic data about the NPC is separate from the data about the Class.
• If a separate namespace like "NPC:" is setup, should custom Monsters be added to that namespace as well? I can't think of a generic term that includes both NPCs and Monsters, other than "creatures", which doesn't sound right for humanoid NPCs... if there was a term to unify those two groups, that would likely be the best option.
• Improving the template used could add several organizational benefits, including:
  • Most of the NPCs here are created from custom Classes also posted here. NPCs in published materials reference sources when using non-SRD content, and the d20 NPCs wiki did that with a "uses Rulebook" semantic field. I'd suggest a semantic field like "uses source" to be able to link to pages in this wiki with the custom content, or a WotC sourcebook. Ensuring that NPCs have links to their sources, especially custom ones, would allow a DM thinking of using that NPC the ability to quickly see if the custom class/feat/etc. has been given Balance Points, to get a sense of how it would mesh with their campaign.
  • In the current template, the Creature Type links to the SRD page on that creature type. And while the creature type pages have a list of creatures with that type, the semantic query on those pages is only for SRD creatures. So for a creature like the Aerodactyl, clicking on its type leads you to the SRD:Dragon Type page, but that page doesn't list the Aerodactyl as a NPC using that type. Maybe simply adding a "View all (including non-SRD) creatures of this Type" link under the SRD table, leading to a full-wiki semantic search for that creature type would do the trick.
  • Die rolling right from the template
  • Add a "Race" semantic property, which for custom races on this wiki, could then include in the race description a quick link to "Creatures using this race"
  • Add a toggle to not have semantic data for that entry (such that for short blocks, like barbarian "while raging" blocks, the semantic data doesn't double-up)

--MidnightLightning☇(talk) 19:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

You'll have to do the database dump for D&D NPCs yourself. Make a semantic query that lists every appropriate NPC, then copy/paste that list into Special:Export. Don't include templates, and include the whole history. Gzip that and send it over to me.

As far Creature subtypes go, the "Classic Monster" template already checks if the subtype is in the SRD and links to the SRD if it is, or the custom subtype pages if it's not. (This is one of the many conditionals/branches that get used in monster templates that I think you aren't currently seeing in "Stat Block 2" because it's just too much of a pain to edit.) The SRD subtype pages could be so enhanced.

That toggle...again, another advantage of having Winter/Lua. Doing anything with parser functions is insanely verbose and hard to modify. Also, the toggle in general may be broken right now. We'll see what's up. Surgo 19:49, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

It would be relatively easy to add an ask query to the SRD Type pages that listed homebrew monsters and NPCs with that type in addition to the SRD ones. It's just a manual thing that we need to add if we want, and then probably clearly indicate it is not a part of the SRD. You can also sort by type on the monster page though, though that may be insufficiently easy.

We can do any new properties we need to and I like the idea of doing a "Race" property that can be used to list them on race pages. "Uses Rulebook" seems somewhat excessive to me though, since I don't see why we'd ever search for it and standard references on a page seem sufficient to point people at stuff that we can't post here due to copyright. Am I missing something there? - Tarkisflux 17:19, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I've found a "Uses Rulebook" data element most useful because it's always in the same place on the page (Semantic datablock), and I know immediately if this NPC uses custom content (so, generally they're good for exclusion searches; if you're a PC and your DM has excluded certain content, or you as DM want to follow your own guidelines). Having the standard reference at the top of the stat block for class and race, with the spell list for custom spells, and with feats for custom feats means you may miss a reference on first read. I definitely think each NPC should cite where its content comes from, but if we don't want to make it Semantic, that's not critical in my eyes. --MidnightLightning☇(talk) 21:01, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Exclusionary searches are a fair call that I hadn't considered, so I'm sold. I've also modified the SRD:Aberration Type page to show homebrew monsters. Was that what you had in mind? - Tarkisflux 22:19, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

→Reverted indentation to one colon

So if you want to install the Winter plugin, I'd be happy to start messing around with options (sandbox started over at User:MidnightLightning/Stat templates). --MidnightLightning☇(talk) 13:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

It's already installed; feel free to use Lua too if you wish (that's installed as well). I was hoping to get to it myself this weekend. The end result needs to be readable (the code, that is). The current code is not readable. Surgo 15:40, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Winter issue

Not sure this a bug, or a syntax error of mine - entering the following on a page

<nowinter>

{{#if | 1 || level one {{#if | 1 || level two {{#if | 1 || level three}} }} }}

</nowinter>

should yield "level one level two level three", but instead it yields "level one {{#if | 1 ". It actually looks like things three levels deep are not being evaluated properly. Is the $wgWinterMaxNesting variable set to something much less than the default 50? --MidnightLightning☇(talk) 19:51, 22 October 2010 (UTC)