User talk:Spazalicious Chaos/Magical Cosplayer (3.5e Class)

Lo, the Zodar

Not giving this a full review, but a point to be aware of, particularly when giving open ended things, is unintended consequences. Note the Zodar found in Fiend Folio, page 199. Be aware that being able to summon it (ablit at ECL 18) will give you Wish whenever you want, no cost. I'm sure there's other abuses, but I've not looked into them yet. -- Eiji-kun 01:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

At 20th level it would be available, and by then there is already wish flingers everywhere. And that be a very specific circumstance. I was thinking more of avoiding cosplayers just donning a mech suit whenever they were facing something poisonous or a rogue, hence the "do not gain construct traits" thing.

Also, this is a monster class when you get down to it. There is nothing this class can do to break the game that a wizard can't do with polymorph and sooner. Thus, unless someone out there makes a LA 0 adamantine coated null monster template, I'm sure that the cosplayer will not kill a game.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 01:18, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Then why is it Rogue level? Though, IMO, it is either Wizard or Unquantifable. Probably the latter. -- Eiji-kun 02:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

++To Eiji. You get "wish flingers everywhere" in wizard-level games. Not rogue-level ones. --Ghostwheel 02:35, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

You get them in rogue games, too. It's just rogue wishers are A) one trick ponies, B) get it as a very late game ability, such 20+, or C) the wish is limited. Like, only if you are in a particular circumstance and only if nothing else can get in your way... huh, the cosplayer fits in that category. However, you did inadvertantly draw my attention to yet another advantage mecha suit has over costume.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

And done. Now the Zodar argument goes into effect at around level 25 by my math, at which point the balancing rules break down in every direction anyway. Also, the number of mechs you can have in your hammer space garage is severely limited.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:50, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Using wish by it's very nature makes the character in question rather antithetical to a one-trick pony. Wish lets you do pretty much whatever you want within its rules, which is a lot. - TG Cid 08:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Btw where are you getting ECL 20th and 25th? It says "a construct of a CR your lvl -2". Zodar is CR 16. -- Eiji-kun 08:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

And meduim sized. Uber mecha leaps that up to CR 23.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 17:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Wish is basically the upper bounding definition of wizard level. Yeah. Wizard level has an UPPER bound and it is wish. Anything past that can be called Pun-Pun level: you are not playing a game at that point. Period. Don't be stupid. --Aarnott 18:04, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

A loose reading

Any construct with my CR -2 eh? Suppose I'm level 10. How about a Effigy Creature (+1 CR) Stone Half Golem (+3 CR) Half-Ogre (+0 CR --> there is no reason I can't apply this template to an Ogre) Half-Minotaur (+0 CR) Ogre (CR 3) Barbarian 1? Since it's any possible construct, we can assume this one was REALLY lucky and passed all its Will saves for the extra golem arms. Bring along 4 greatswords (approximately 7 damage average). With 47 Str raging, this gives around 34 base damage per weapon (before anything other than just Str and weapon damage) that will almost certainly hit. With 8 arms and a gore, that is ~160 damage. I'm just illustrating a point. There are much more broken things that can be done.

And of course, a warforged sorcerer level 8 would be a valid option. Or a effigy catoblepas for a death ray.

Yes. This class, as written, is very wizard level. --Aarnott 20:15, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Read the prerequisites, sir

Pathetisad requires a prior morale penalty. Something which could not possibly have happened for a level 1 character. --Foxwarrior 02:14, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Any recommended replacemnt?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

More Hillarity

This was still open in my browser when I got to work, and I gave it another read. Bind item doesn't restrict what qualifies as an item. I'll bind a mountain. Then I will summon it in my hand while I'm over top the orc encampment. Splat?

Really though, the whole "recharge" thing is wizard level on its own. There is a thing called a Luck Blade. You probably haven't read my comments yet, but I'm just adding more evidence that this class is wizard level. --Aarnott 16:49, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Hence I relabeled it. Done yet?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 18:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Yay! Now that it is tagged wizard and you actually agree I can give some constructive comments without feeling like I'm talking to deaf ears. I should preface my comments with the fact that I'm mostly interested in improving this class because I think it is a pretty fun concept.

First off, this class is terrible at 1st level. After a few rounds, this character becomes a weak commoner. And LA +0 templates aren't really that great either. Instead, here is an idea:

You start the game choosing 3 LA +0 races, in addition to your own race. As a full-round action, you can change into a member of one of these races, gaining any racial benefit of the race that you want (you choose which benefits to take). You can also keep the benefits of your own race. You become whatever type that race is and if your type changes you gain a subtype for your real race. You can have this ability active whenever you want. These are your costumes.

That doesn't cover the bab/saves, which templates were supposed to cover (somehow, although it doesn't work that way). Instead, for each costume, you can pick a specialization:

Warrior: When you wear this costume gain bonus feats as a fighter, +4 hp per HD, all weapon/armor proficiencies, good bab, good fort, something else so it doesn't utterly suck

Mage: When you wear this costume, you can cast a single 1st level spell at-will (scales to a single spell of each spell level), good will save.

Beast: When you wear this costume, you gain a LA +1 creature template, you can pick a LA +1 race, or you can pick a CR 1 monster. Scales as you had before for the LA, and for monsters CR = HD.

--> you can come up with more

That way the character actually has something interesting to do at 1st level. When they don the costume, they actually become something like the character they are trying to emulate. I'll probably have more comments later, but there's a start. --Aarnott 19:20, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I think you are misreading costume. As written you get the base attack bonus and good saves of any template you pick if the template changes your type, which is what 70% of templates do. In effect, you are asking me to foul up it's one good design with bad writing and limited options.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 22:20, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Limited options? I'll ignore the bad writing part since the random ideas I threw together above is at least as good as what you actually publish. Having (up to) 4 rounds of a LA+0 template as your only class feature at first level seems like limited options. The template giving BAB and saves somewhat makes sense now, although some clarification would definitely improve the article.

Now, suppose that you just made it last forever (or have it usable frequent enough to matter). Is a LA+0 template any good? We have set the balance point at wizard and this class at some levels can do wizard level stuff. At other levels it can't even come close to a monk. This is very bad design.

What I'm suggesting is a trademark of wizard level classes: versatility. I'm also suggesting abilities that are always available because there is nothing worse than being completely out of abilities when your teammates want to keep going. It's a problem with the design with many WotC classes, including the wizard itself. I mean, really, once his spells are gone, he's a commoner with a pet rat.

Now, I slightly miswrote the "Beast" option, since it was basically geared to act exactly like what you already had for costume, plus be able to do some other things. Here's a rewrite of it, so you might get what I meant:

Beast (Creature Template): When you wear this costume, you gain a LA +1 (or LA +0) creature template (you do not need to meet the pre-requisites for the template). Treat your Magical Cosplayer levels as hit dice of a creature of your type for the purposes of base attack bonus and base saves (your type may change while you wear this costume).

Beast (Race): When you wear this costume, your race becomes a LA +1 race instead of the normal LA +0 race for this costume. Treat your Magical Cosplayer levels as hit dice of a creature of your type for the purposes of base attack bonus and base saves (your type may change while you wear this costume).

Beast (Monster): When you wear this costume, you transform into a monster with CR = your magical cosplayer levels. You can advance your HD in this form by as many non-magical cosplayer class levels you have.

So, yeah. What I'm suggesting is basically adding a bunch of options for your 1st level cosplayers, bringing the power up to wizard level for 1st level (from below monk level), and also adding in a bunch of elements of good class design. --Aarnott 22:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I had a different idea- make Chibi more useful and first level. This fits very well with the direction this class seems to go- support squishy that later becomes a combat brute.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 19:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Really?

Deletion? The class stays true to it's concept, becoming closer with each edit. If anything, players of this class have to deal with their former support squishy suddenly becoming a tank. So, are you telling me, flat out, that I must abbandon concept and trash this entire project, or can we work together to get the idea clearer?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 04:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

While I don't think the 'joke' of the class is strong enough to actually make a whole class around it, but have you considered trying to impliment the dresssphere system into D&D, from FFX-2? Because when I think 'cosplayer class' I think dressspheres. Also in that vein, the Master of Many Masks PrC. -- Eiji-kun 04:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Similar, as well as aspects of the skin system from the end of Jade Cocoon. Still, what it is looking like right now is that Costume needs a boost while Mecha Suit needs some restrictions. So far I'm thinking uping the costume cap by one and rewriting MS to excluded templated and undersized constructs.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 18:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

And done. Now starting costumes are more powerful and mecha is less world ending. Also, only the real badly underpowered races (halflings, gnomes, kobolds, goblins, etc.) can access the Zodar and similar overpowered constructs. Question- why are all the really world breaking constructs medium size?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 04:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Caster-types benefit from smaller sizes and melee types benefit from larger sizes. While there are few "caster" golems you might consider the Zodar a caster, or gish, so it doesn't need to be huge, it's not a main front line monster. You'll find this rule usually works across the board, barring things with the Awesome subtype. -- Eiji-kun 09:45, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I hadn't replied to this earlier. This article is definitely a good candidate for deletion. Look at level 1 again (yeah, I don't even need to look at other levels yet because the class hasn't even started out balanced). Once per day you can get a +1 LA template. Either you are going to get a completely overpowered template: Mulhorandi Divine Minion, or you are going to get something that adds some strength or the ability to take hits by getting a huge DR (like mineral warrior). Would you give a 1st level wizard the ability to wildshape as a level 11 druid once per day? The ability still sucks, however, because you can only use it once and then you are pretty much useless.

The chibi ability would be useful if it actually did something. On it's own it does practically nothing at all. And when your character has already used up their broken level 11 wildshape for the day, now they get to stand around with basically no saves or BAB (so they are worse than a fighter) and they can go into chibi mode, which does nothing.

Here's a question for you: would you consider it good design to make a race that has -8 to str, dex, wis, and cha and gains a +32 int? That is what your class is like at level 1 right now. I don't even need to bother looking at other levels. It is just that bad from the start. --Aarnott 18:28, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Chibi is a self gimping that helps allies, so it was never intended for an individual power boost. Much like how I can make the exact same arguements about bards and warlords- they suck by themselves.

If the template only lasts such a short while, why does it matter if it is overpowered for wizard level? Color Spray is a first level insta-win that a wizard can use between 1 and 3 times a day, but afterwards has the same problems you are complaining about- no powered and waiting to get killed or saved. The short duration/high power combo is the wizard level classes defining point, thus stick to arguing that it is over powered or too short, don't argue both.

As for your question- out of context, no, in context and with good legitimate reasons, yes. Concept is what RPGs are about. Concept. The halfling has it's halfling abilities because it is a halfling. The dwarf has more pwerful abilities over the other races because it needed more abilities to get the concept down. Out of the core races I would say only the elf is bad design, because it's stated flavor has nothing to do with it's abilities. Thus, give me a reason why it would be like that and I will work with you on your proposed race. I can get started any time you are ready.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 19:59, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

"The dwarf has more pwerful abilities over the other races because it needed more abilities to get the concept down."

>~O Ghck!

SHUN! SHUN THE HERETIC! BURN HIM ALIVE AND LET THE VULTURES DEVOUR HIS BONES! -- Eiji-kun 20:27, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Careful, Spaz. You may incite an Eiji Rant. --Aarnott 21:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Sigh... I'll get the barbeque sauce and the pike...--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Back on topic, I have included Class Uniforms- base at 2nd level and Prestige at 11th. That should get a good mix of varied abilities in there.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 00:34, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Alright, the cosplayer now has some weapon skill on top of uniforms and therefore is firmly wizard level. Anything else?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 00:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Due to lack of reponse, I refitted costume assuming power is the issue. I have also given the cosplayer a utility skill ability, though the scaling is uncertain.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:11, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Good additions. I'm going to remove the delete template because you are improving it :). I still have reservations about both the Chibi and Costume abilities, which I will address below. But the weapon mastery, fluffy goodness to disguise, and class level costumes are great additions.

The problem with Chibi isn't that it is meant to be a "self gimping that helps allies", it is that it doesn't actually help the allies on its own (well not much). Reducing the effects of fear is all that it does on its own (and, with the penalty of increasing them on you). Note that, technically, increasing it by one degree on you also means that you immediately become shaken when you go chibi. The double morale boost does absolutely nothing unless you actually have someone providing a morale boost. And, as cool as that would be with inspire courage, it means you actually need 2 players being support characters. And, in addition to that, any bard playing in a wizard level game will definitely have a way to do stuff while they are inspiring. They will also have their inspire doubled already with the Words of Creation feat.

My suggestion for Chibi is to make it do something good. If you are going to give up offensive actions, you should be buffing your allies enough as if you were still contributing! There are lots of different ways you could do this. Maybe grant all allies in some range (probably short) an extra swift and/or move action each turn. You can still keep your morale doubling. The point is, turning Chibi shouldn't make you a huge liability, otherwise players of this class won't want to use it.

Costume has the same issues I addressed above and I can't really spell it out much more clearly. If an ability is going to be your main source of power, it needs to be more than 1/day at 1st level. Also, creature templates (especially) are not well designed and are generally a bad idea to give PCs. I know you feel that having things unbalanced is fine as far as the flavor suits (with regard to the race with +32 int I described above), but I feel that I can speak on behalf of the general wiki community here and say that is not a philosophy we accept here. It is part of our Content Requirements to have things decently balanced. --Aarnott 16:13, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Chibi has been changed up, twice. Costume, I can help but feel that if templates are as dangerous as you make them out to be, they have to stay at once per day at first level. To do otherwise would put this back into pun-pun level, and threatening deletion would get old really fast after a while.

As for why templates, there is simply more variety to to templates than any list of pregenerated costumes could have. Granted, I could track them all down and make them player safe, but that would take time and resources I don't have.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 19:03, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Class Uniform?

An extension of costumes, can anyone come up with a way to have character class templates? Do they already exist or do I need to make a class template group? If the latter I would love to have them apply to monsters as well...--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 04:36, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean, "how do I apply class levels to a creature?" or "I love the template rules so much I wish that classes used them!"? --Foxwarrior 04:45, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay, in this context, your question isn't quite that terrible. I recommend class features up to a certain level, perhaps. --Foxwarrior 04:50, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, all I'm really looing for is just some easy staple on templates that can apply to the cosplayer and monsters, like a wizard template, fighter template, rogue template, so on. Also, I really miss the PF simple templates. Maybe this should just be a PF class...--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 19:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Pathfinder isn't exactly a reference that would draw favorable comparisons. Be careful what you wish for. - TG Cid 04:53, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Not comparing, just stating that the Pathfinder template system is comprehensive and easy to use, albeit at the cost of the rest of the Pathfinder system as it compares to D&D.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 05:09, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

That's not exactly what I meant. Pathfinder doesn't really have a sterling reputation in this particular circle of people, so suggesting that you may be basing a class off of their rules or, as you say, making "a PF class" may not fly well if you want a good reception here. To say we have reservations with what Pathfinder suggests for rule changes would be an understatement. - TG Cid 18:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Rating

MisterSinister dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

You know, I could lay out the fact that as-written, hemaphrodites or asexual creatures taking this class either have every proficiency ever or none whatsoever. Or the fact that its main ability doesn't work at all as intended, as the wording means you can never learn any new costumes. Or the fact that this has polymorph abuse written all over it. Or the fact that when you don a class costume, you keep its stats forever. But this all pales in comparison to the fact that, on a strict reading of the Chibi ability, your best action is fucking pissing on people while being a midget. This is offensive on a level I can hardly describe, and to be honest, even April Fools is too good for this shitty excuse for a class. I actually want the time I spent analyzing this utter pile of shit back. But luckily, all hope is not lost! If you go here, you will find a much better, saner and less scatologically-focused interpretation of this concept. So, yeah. Do that instead of reading this shit.

	Ghostwheel dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	What MS said. The class just... doesn't work at all, on a closer reading (ugh).

	ThunderGod Cid dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	Echoing above sentiments, with particular emphasis on being the walking, Fine-size mass buffer/debuffer.

Foxwarrior dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

If the creature templates are assumed to be balanced for the LAs they use, then getting a small template for less than a minute a couple of times per day is far from being an ability that can make your character useful in a Very High campaign. If they aren't, this is a terrible dumpster-diving class. Chibi is funny, but doubling bonuses of unspecified size is certain to be some stupid RNG-breaking nonsense when used properly. Weapon Skill only matters at this balance point when using it to get Tome Combat feats, which likely have very little to do with swinging the weapon. Bind Item should never be used with anything that doesn't have limited charges: a Ring of Three Wishes or a Wand of something would be very nice. Pet is wrong, wrong, wrong; a cohort is stronger than a familiar, not weaker. Class Uniform is actually pretty decent; classes are already balanced to some extent, and half level means that you don't squash other players' characters. Of course, the increasing level adjustment means it's excessively amazing at levels 4 and 5 with Dual (like you'd ever only use two, ha!) Costume, before suddenly becoming much weaker at level 6, and then getting quite a bit stronger again at level 8. Does Dual Costume cost multiple uses? Since Mecha Suit cannot be changed, doesn't that mean that the only benefit you get for increasing in level is HD advancement, which gives almost nothing you care about? And what's the reasoning behind making all of these abilities have such tiny durations?

	Franken Kesey dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	Do not need to over-iterate the numerous problems. You are getting worse.