Talk:Quickening Katana (3.5e Equipment)

Ratings

Leziad is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.

It is a decent weapon, I am a bit wary at handling cleave to just anyone, especially if you play with a superior homebrew version. Blizzard of Blade should explain what happens if you move away. As it stands it feels more like a unique magical katana than a mundane weapon. Some people really like that, but me, not so much. Either way it’s not terribly written. It’s quite decent. What I like is that unlike most published katana this one is finessable. All katanas should be usable alongside weapon finesse.

	Ganteka Future opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	There's some poor wording on here that's really unclear and it just grants far too much for the investiture to get it, making other material obsolete in the process. Also, see below.

	The bluez in the dungeon likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	Finally, a katana that is not underpowered! *wink wink -See talk for more in-depth thoughts

Balance

So, this is intended to make the bastard sword not exist right? On the surface, which is to say, the stat block and the first three sentences of text, the two weapons are comparable. The quickening katana costs a little more, deals a 1d8 instead of the bastard sword's 1d10, has a higher critical range and weighs a pound less. It even has the same funny "get it now when you have Martial Proficiency, get benefits later when you get Exotic Proficiency without having to trade out your weapon" benefit, an often overlooked and convenient feature of the bastard sword. It's also basically a more damaging rapier that deals slashing instead of piercing, but you can two-hand it.

Now, the bastard sword gets crapped on a lot for not really offering anything else for that feat investiture. The quickening katana goes to fix that feat investiture by... giving you another feat (Cleave), or a scaling benefit to that chain that ends with a poorly worded ability that may just let you attack two targets with every swing you make. That's not all, obviously, there's the better drawing features, Blizzard of Blades (which normally requires a feat and an ability score prerequisite, ignored here, and with further benefits and is also poorly worded letting you attack a space then move but still somehow attack from that space or something) and Rising Sun Strike.

A feat's design should not be "get another feat and also this benefit here, and...". Don't do that to Exotic Weapon Proficiency, that's poor design.

There are some ideas here, but too many of them and not particularly well thought out. Rising Sun Strike is enough of a benefit on its own, though doesn't make sense why suddenly you can move like that with this weapon and not do that with any other weapon you own. These things should be like, maneuvers or feats or something. --Ganteka Future (talk) 19:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Ganteka, I'm sorry but I have to disagree wholeheartedly.

Point about bastard sword is not complete: yes it makes the sword not exist, as much homebrew content trumps over WoTC material with little care, because the point is in fact to discard what's useless or not optimal. And bastard sword is not a good comparison: it was terribly weak from the start. Real contender is the spiked chain which has reach, not reach and trip, along with finesse and two-handed, which are probably still a bit less but not so much.

Point about giving too things with just one feat, especially other feats. While you are right that some of this features could be their own feat, just for the katana or with a broader scope, but then what would Exotic proficiency do? Give a player an higher crit? A double weapon? A bigger damage die? Yeah, I think I'm gonna use my very limited selection of feats to take Cleave and just use a greatsword. This is specifically limiting characters to complete long and burdensome feat chains to achieve very little. That is poor design.

On the Falling Bamboo Forest: well it's not very clear, still it's enough clear to understand it means that when using the extra attack from Great Cleave you can hit two opponents with one attack roll. It's poorly worded yes, but then suggest a fix, don't run to harsh ratings immediately.

On the Blizzard of Blades: while I think that this is the feature that may most benefit from an indipendent feat, your comparison isn't very thourough. The Infinite flurry requires a class (better a class feature), and the class is monk. And it applies to a scaling unarmed strike, whose damage is quite higher than this one (other than applying to monk weapons). The real problem, in my mind, is that Infinite Flurry requires Flurry of Blows, limiting it to monks. And no, you can't move after the attack and still hit, unsless you use a 5-ft step or have a mean to move as a free or swift action, which are minor occurences. And again, if the problem is bad wording just suggest a change.

I don't mean to sound annoying, but it really seems that you rated out of a little "outburst" instead of letting the author review your comment, and I think a second view is good in this situation. --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 20:48, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Blizzard of Blade does actually not require to be a Monk and having Flurry of Blow. It just a special infinite flurry attack anyone proficient can use. --Leziad (talk) 20:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Blizzard no, but Infinite Flurry yes, I was referring to that. Probably it's poorly worded, but I can blame it on English not being my native language. --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 21:05, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Je comprend. --Leziad (talk) 21:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

(Sorry in advance for LONG POST) Comparing to the bastard sword is difficult. It's a weapon we tend to feel bad for and certainly isn't the balance point anyone tries to reach when designing or looking at exotic weapons. Alternatively, the spiked chain... gets brought up a lot in optimization discussions. The argument about the bastard sword is more that the quickening katana was an overcorrection of a perceived problem.

Getting a feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency) that gives access to another feat by way of using that specific equipment can work, but it does make balance tricky. Ideally, exotic weapons open up interesting features and mechanics based around the weapon's function and shape, and do so in a way that doesn't bog down the game or remove level-appropriate challenges (rather, easing those challenges). Sometimes easing those challenges is as basic as "more damage", and sometimes it is as complex as "you can strike around shields, ignoring some shield bonus to AC and allowing you to more easily disarm shields with a +2 bonus on such rolls" or some other similar example. Not all enemies have a shield bonus, so having a "sometimes" benefit opposed to an "always" benefit like more damage might be something that interests a character, especially given a certain campaign.

I don't know anyone that gets excited about long feat chains. I don't know what that has to do with the quickening katana. Exotic Weapon Proficiency is available for free for classes and races and other material. It depends on how much you think the feat is worth, as the SRD tended to vary greatly on the value of things.

As far as material being "boring", well, that's a different beast and the game has plenty of space and need for such things, especially for DMs when running enemy combatants and need things that are competent and simple to run. A feature that goes unused is as good as a feature it didn't have.

As for Falling Bamboo Forest, if for some reason I was DMing a player that wasn't the author, and their character had this weapon, I would rule that the final feature only be used when making any cleave attack. If that's the case, "when cleaving" would be the suggestion to tag on to the end of the questionable sentence. Given that it very well might not be the case and you're just supposed to double attack with your swings as your reward for having Great Cleave, which is also possible, given how difficult it is to pull off Great Cleave anyway, and having a more constant benefit could be the intended wording.

As for Blizzard of Blades, well, it gives access to someone else's specialized toy, to put it a funny way. This was their thing, but now you have it, with more options on it. Monks, or anyone who can get a flurry (which isn't difficult) can use any weapon they can flurry with, not just their unarmed strike. The weirdness about the 5-ft. step or Dash as a swift (or any other swift action movement abilities), is that your blade continues slashing in that space even if you move away from it. I could see that as a supernatural maneuver for sure, fine, but this isn't supernatural, so it comes across as a glitch and a bit of weirdness, and would continue even if you put your blade away or were disarmed.

I actually rather like Rising Sun Strike, I just find it odd that it is tied to this weapon so specifically. At higher levels were fighting larger monsters is much more common, it gives the fight-man at least some means of getting into melee without taking damage for it, provided he can manage the set up. With its wording, you don't even need to target the nearest square of an enemy, which is probably intended, since it only counts as a charge. You can move along side and past a target and potentially back out of their full-attack range. It's also a standard action, so you've still got a move action for the round. I haven't thought out all the possible mechanical implications of this, but it is interesting.

As for waiting for a response, the author has been inactive lately (no edits in the last month), so the likelihood of it being changed within a reasonable time of posting the comment is low. As the article is what, nearly 5 years old now, and I had forgotten about it since the last time I saw it used in game. Concerns were brought up with the author then, and that was already a couple years ago as well. I'd rather not put it on a list, wait, and forget about it again. I've had to do this with a rather in-depth breakdown on the drillcaster crossbow, which I did not rate and am still waiting on a reply for... apparently exactly a year ago today. Huh. Wow.

Favor ratings are for articles "good enough to be featured on the front page". I'd rather not have things on the front page that have multiple ambiguities in them.

This is an Oppose for me. I don't like deleting articles, preferring that they get sandboxed. It needs a major overhaul to be usable. It has far too many features, and those features add up to more than a reasonable cost. I'll not be changing my rating, but the quest for fairness is understood. Thumbs up.

Also, don't worry about any miscommunications. Being clear in text on talk pages, especially when they get long, is very difficult. Honesty is appreciated and when it comes to design and D&D rules, we all make mistakes. I'm sure there were plenty of things on here I could have been more clear about. --Ganteka Future (talk) 23:49, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Overall I think you made reasonable arguments, and now I'm inclined too to advice Eiji to, for example, drop Blizzard of Blade and Falling Bamboo Forest, and maybe make them into feats wether intended for this weapon alone or with a more general purpose, save Rising Sun Strike and adopt a clearer wording. I will change my rating to Like to point that the article needs some work but there a lot of good work in it. Other than that, I'll just wait for Eiji's answer. --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 07:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Exotic Weapons, Weapon Arts and Design

This talk page grew quite fast and with it an ongoing debate on weapon design, especially exotic weapon design. Alongside my own rating of the article I will post my thoughts as follows: I have moved a lot on weapon design through the years, such as when I started playing, after I read the Tome series and where I stand now. I personally think that a weapon in the game is much like a weapon in real life, it is an instrument. A weapon is a medium which the martial user channels their skills through, and by themselves shouldn’t be too special. Now some weapons may be quite special and require special rules, such as many double weapons, unusual weapons like an urumi, a gun, or other modern and futuristic weapons.

The baseline exotic weapons are often disappointing, existing in the category because they are ‘exotic’ but don’t warrant the feat to use them. Exotic weapons that I have recently designed try be good enough to warrant the feat without tricks (heavy glaive) or be mechanically interesting (helix sword). I prefer weapons to be sleek and uncomplicated, a lot of weapon arts could be instead given to [Tactical] feats. So you can use the Rising Sun Slash with a jian or a spear instead of katana. I think that it is much more interesting, giving you more aesthetic and flavor options rather than keying them to a single weapon. The fact such special maneuvers are exclusive to yet another piece of sharpened steel is strange to me. Again exceptions made on truly wicked stuff like the urumi and other sword-whips.

We need to keep in mind that EWP is often thought to be a low feat, which I myself stopped believing. I think that a weapon with weapon arts should be effectively martial statistically. It makes it so some weapons aren’t ‘must-pick’, you can choose your fancy kung-fu sword or a mechanically superior sharpened stick, either way you end up as a winner. When I review many of my older material, weapon arts tend to go, again for the sake of a sleeker playstyle.

Personally some of the best exotic weapon I have seen are:

Ghostwheel’s Double Sword: It's a double weapon, and it means it. The double sword is pretty much two longswords glued together, but the effect is logical and clean. Each attack you can strike two different targets, positioning willing. That is exactly what I am looking for in an exotic weapon. It’s not overly complex, with strangely named abilities which are easily forgotten about.

Stryker’s Cross Spear: It's a scythe, it’s a spear, no it’s the cross spear! A statistically solid weapon, which counts as two other weapons for interesting feats and abilities. I gave this one to a powerful enemy NPC and the PCs were quite afraid of being in reach.

Ganteka’s War Chime: On a similar design spot as the bastard sword, the war chime distinguishes itself as being one of the rare high damage bludgeoning weapons around. It is a one-handed 1d10 weapon with a special effect on a critical hit, which is a rare damage type resisted by few. It can also be used to make sound.While not written in text, one could potentially use the warchime for percussion-based bardic music, which is also really cool.

Pathfinder’s Gnome Flickmace: A weapon that was misprinted and thus only exists on the PFSRD. This mace can have reach which is triggered on and off as a swift action. I think that darling, and I love it.

I think there is beauty in simplicity, and that a weapon should not make the character. I personally would encourage more [tactical] feats which can grant weapon arts-like tactical maneuvers. Blues has a good point in that feats are rare and a exotic weapon should be damn worth it, and I very much agree with that statement as well. I am simply not sure that weapon arts and free feat-like abilities is the way to do it. Maybe the way I think to make exotic weapons is not that worthwhile to pick up, and even if that is true there are many ways to gain one effectively for free through class or racial features. Even then, there are plenty of excellent, cool and interesting weapons that don’t need weapon arts to be worthwhile. --Leziad (talk) 00:33, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your insightful comment, it's very interesting as a point of game design. I have nothing to add, just a quick note: the problem is striking a balance between a martial weapon with an unneeded feat tax and a weapon that contains multiple feats within itself for the low cost of a feat and some gold.

I'm too convinced that some so called weapon arts could be just their own feat (the very concept of weapon arts is linked to the game design of the Souls series so their existence within D&D could be an oversight, as their purpose is fulfilled mainly by feats), but that what would leave us? Exotic weapons with this design in mind would end being, for the most part, just weapons with small bonuses (à la spiked chain) with the need to be tied to another feat (let's say [tactical]), which usually requires another feat, such as Weapon Focus or something more general like Power Attack, if not multiples, along with other requirements. That already is three feats at least, which is a pretty steep cost for all characters: the fighter type (and class), which usually receives more feats, must expend a good number of its limited main resources to gain a few tricks (usually at low levels things are still not so good), while casters or non-martial types have even less feats to take and this reduces options in character design. With feats being so important and so precious it's no wonder that feat-chains are generally disliked and a quick fix is a [tactical] feat or similar, that humans and strongheart halflings are so liked because a free feat is too good to pass, that flaws use is sometimes frowned upon because it's a quick way to obtain new abilities with an overall pretty minimal cost.

This is not a critique to your argument, just a quick (well it was quick before I started typing) thought on the point of exotic proficiency, weapon arts and all of that. What I pretty much mean is that, in my opinion, feats are one of the more important resources while being very rare and usually definitive. The very concept of having to take a feat to use a weapon must be very carefully balanced because if it gives too little and requires too much other feats it's cumbersome to use, while if it gives too much it can make things unbalanced and make other things (weapons or feats) useless. --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 07:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)