Talk:Polymorph Self, Tome (3.5e Spell)

Dismissibility

RAW, this spell can't be dismissed, because the "(D)" clause can only be used by the caster - which is absent during the effect. Might say explicitly "the monster can end the spell"; OTOH, forcing the caster to commit to a form for the entire duration (removing the "(D)") may help balance its truly enormous potential. Bigode 02:59, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

RAW, yes it can dismiss it. It says you "vanish", but that statement shares all the same problems as death, i.e. it is totally undefined and has no consequences. It never says you cannot take actions. So in order to declare that you cannot dismiss it, we must apply some RAI and assume that F&K intends that the caster ceases to exist, not occupying any space, unable to take any actions or perceive anything. And if we're applying RAI to go that far, we may as well apply RAI a little further and assume that, because they deliberately made it dismissible, someone must be able to dismiss it — and the only real candidate for that someone is the conjured monster. So I contend that if any changes should be made, it should be adding text that explicates the monster's ability to dismiss the spell. --DanielDraco 03:12, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

If anything, I think that argument may work by saying "you" dismiss it, from whichever undefined position you occupy. But there's also the separate argument about going against F&K's intent for balance reasons. Bigode 03:22, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

The balance argument may be valid. I'm just noting that the RAW argument isn't. I have no opinion on whether or not it would be better-balanced with either change. --DanielDraco 03:39, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I noted this in chat but noting here again: I oppose this change, due to the existence of spells such as Major Image. Surgo 14:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

We do need to decide (using whatever reasoning) which interpretation we want to use. As written, the biggest concern is that it is entirely unclear. Something needs to change for that reason, if for no other. --DanielDraco 00:57, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to avoid hopping on the "let's nerf polymorph" train, since there is a perfectly usable alternative to this right in the Dungeonomicon where this also makes its appearance. So I would like to just clarify to say that the monster can dismiss the spell. Surgo 01:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit conflicted. Gonna go ahead and post this anyway, in case others disagree with Surgo. I, for the record, agree that saying the monster can dismiss is the easiest change which remains closest to F&K's vision.

One thing that I think should be considered, though. If Bigode's response to my argument is the interpretation used (i.e., the caster himself dismisses it despite being absent), and if any monster exists that can cast this spell (and several do, because some monsters can advance by class and take wizard levels but still be "monsters" and valid targets), then there is an exploit which allows the caster to infinitely produce like-minded monsters that never go away. The wizard starts by casting Polymorph Self to turn into a monster that can cast Polymorph Self. This monster casts Polymorph Self to turn into anything at all. The wizard then dismisses Polymorph Self; he reappears and the first monster vanishes (but since it is already vanished, nothing further happens to it). At this point, the wizard and the second monster are present. So the first monster dismisses Polymorph Self; the first monster reappears and the second monster vanishes. Both spell effects are now expired so that nobody will vanish anymore, but the wizard and the spellcasting monster are both present.

So yeah, if the caster himself retains the ability to dismiss the spell, that hole should be patched too. --DanielDraco 01:21, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Using RAI where RAW seems unclear: looks to me like the first monster can't dismiss the second spell because it only exists as far as the first spell runs, so you'd have the original caster and the second monster, that exists as long as the duration of the second spell. But if true, that, while less crazy, is definitely outside of design intent as well. (While there *is* a purpose to the "vanish/reappear" language, it's the source of this problem.) Also: :clap::clap::clap: Bigode 04:32, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, if you apply any RAI at all that exploit falls apart at a touch. I'm just noting it as something that RAW allows, and it shouldn't allow it. And on further thought, this actually can be accomplished to the exact same effect without dismissing at all -- the first monster simply needs to cast his spell late enough that the first Polymorph Self expires before the second one. Which makes this an issue that exists regardless, and wholly separate from the question of who, if anyone, can dismiss the spell. So I'm going to start that discussion in a new section. Now, with that tangent snipped off, what shall we do with dismissing? It seems that the cleanest way to fix this, and F&K's most likely intent, is to give the monster the ability to dismiss the spell. --DanielDraco 06:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Someone want to explain to me what is gained by using "vanish and replaced with" instead of "transform into"? If the language is causing problems and concerns, replace it. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 05:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It very neatly bypasses all the crap about whether effects previously on the caster would apply to "the new form"; so it does serve a good purpose, but brings the problems pointed (besides always having been counter-intuitive to say the least); so yeah, it should likely be trashed and replaced with sufficiently good language that actually suggests a change of form. Bigode 05:23, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

"You transform into a creature of your choosing subject to the following limitations: <insert here>. You replace your statistics, including all temporary and permanent bonuses, penalties, and effects, with the base statistics for the creature you select. These effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. You lose access to all class abilities, racial abilities, feats, spells, and so on of your base character and gain access to all of the abilities of the creature you transform into instead. You may dismiss this spell and return to your normal form as a swift action." Standard lines about health and damage and whatever follow.

Poke holes. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 05:35, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Says nothing about equipment, may need clarification on things that could be picked (e.g. spells known, or even prepared; the original one may have slipped here too), may or may not use a clarification about you really changing Int. Bigode 06:24, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Create BFF Exploit

I started this in the above discussion, then discovered that it is in fact a completely separate issue. This spell can be used to permanently create a monster which, while not bound to obedience, wants to do all the same things you want to do and shares your personality, and is thus sure to be your best friend forever if you can remotely tolerate yourself. It's a relatively simple RAW exploit, and it's done like this:

1. Cast Polymorph Self to turn into a monster that advances by character class and has taken sufficient Wizard levels to cast Polymorph Self. You vanish, your BFF appears.
2. Your BFF waits until the spell is about to expire, then casts Polymorph Self to turn into anything at all. Your BFF vanishes, a random monster appears.
3. The first instance of Polymorph Self expires. Your BFF vanishes (or would, if he hadn't already done that), and you appear. The random monster is still there.
4. The second instance of Polymorph Self expires. The random monster vanishes, your BFF appears. Both spell effects are now expired, but your BFF is still there. Nothing is in place which will cause him to vanish again.

So yeah, I think we should probably figure out a way to forbid this situation. --DanielDraco 06:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Ability to dismiss the spell explicitly given to the monster, and it now "ceases to exist" when the spell ends, the argument being that it then becomes impossible for it to re-appear when the second spell ends. Bigode (talk) 06:10, 8 September 2015 (UTC)