Talk:Knight of Kabong (3.5e Prestige Class)

Ratings

	HB Forged likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	I liked that Quick Draw McGraw character when I was younger. But anyways, the "good" saving throws should advance at 2 + half Knight of Kabong level, while Fort save should advance at a third of Knight of Kabong level. Just saying, but if you want ME to edit the stats in, just let me know.

Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger

I appreciate what you're trying for here. There are a lot of issues, though, so let's see what we can do to fix them. A lot of the issues are you trying to lift too closely from the source material.

Requirements: Wow, that's a lot of requirements. I get the BAB, I don't get the alignment. That's...that's a lot of feats. Most characters don't get their fourth feat until level 9, and there's mostly all terrible. That means they couldn't enter this until at least level 10, if they devoted their entire build to it (or were a Human, I suppose, except for the next part). That's also a lot of skills. Oh wow, is that a lot of skills (rhetorical question). I think 56 skill points is a new record for number of skill points required for a PrC I've ever seen although I'm told there are a few higher. They're also all cross-class for something, basically, so no one class you take would let you get in when you appear to be supposed to from the numbers even if you somehow got the BAB and the skill points at the same time, which seems highly unlikely. That should be...addressed.

Class Features: Advancing everything is really good. Basically you only want to do this if your class doesn't give anything much else. A few features here or there are obviously required or you can change what is advanced (just spellcasting or Bardic Music or something) or change how many levels you advance (or combine them). That was a lot of ors, I am aware.

Dramatic Entrance: Potentially an interesting ability, but I would not make it necessary to do (which it currently is, thanks to the word "must"). You should also give the benefits and penalties a duration because currently they are permanent (either round/class level or 1 round, they're pretty high). Really the main issue is being required. Right now, you're required to spend a move action before anything else which is kinda sucky to say the least. I don't really know why this is Supernatural, but I can forgive it, because of the morale thing. Maybe that's magic? But then you literally can't rejoin the battle if someone throws up an AMF before you've snuck back.

Kabonger: Fair enough, the thing the class is based on. I would say don't worry about the damage to the mundane because that's just bookwork, but whatever.

OLÉ!: This is kinda fun. I like it.

Regalia of Heroic Disguise: This is fine. I have no strong feelings on the matter, but given Dramatic Entrance and Vanish Mysteriously, I cannot foresee any El Kabong ever not wearing it. Never mind, you need to be wearing this to get any of your class features. This is never not worn. Honestly, I'd have no strong feelings as long as you removed that part. I don't know why this is Supernatural, that means you can't use any of your class features in an anti-magic field, since this stops working.

Vanish Mysteriously: Again, like with Dramatic Entrance, we have a problem here. You're requiring that someone spend a move action at the start of battle no matter what. This applies even if they are wearing their Regalia (which, as mentioned, they are) which you say they almost never do, in order to spend a full round action. Right now, the order of turns for the El Kabong is: move action leave, any standard action, as long as it doesn't come from this class, full round action, get dressed (I wish this weren't a thing I was already used to in our games, it seriously happens very often), move action return to battle. That is at a minimum, and means that you couldn't stage an ambush if you wanted to, because your surprise round is you run away(?). Also, I just realized, you can't use this ability unless you're wearing your Regalia. Huh. I don't know why this is supernatural either.

KABOOOOOONG!: I'm aware I'm not really supposed to be swearing on the wiki, but holy shit. This is really strong. It's at will and appears to be an attack action as long as you take at least a -1 on Power Attack. There doesn't seem to be a reason to not just have just a frankly stupid number of mundane instruments, since you have to have Quick Draw anyway, which reminds me I need to go back up and write about the requirements. This is going to look a little weird when you read it chronologically, but I don't care. The huge amount of damage and no save, just die is a pretty big deal.

Repair Kabonger: I have no issues with this.

Improved Weapon Finesse: It seems really weird to have this on a class designed to Power Attack things. I really don't think Weapon Finesse should be required at all, but whatever. Other than that (and seriously you should probably remove Weapon Finesse and Deceitful from the required feats), I have no issues with this.

Improved KABOOOOOONG!: Like KABOOOOOONG!, but stronger, although I think more things are immune to stunning than dazing, so that's weird.

Retributive KABOOOOOONG!: There is literally no reason to ever use this. It's terrible.

I was talking to Eiji, and he said he'd be willing to put in some work to help rewrite some of this. I hope this was only critical only in a helpful manner, since I really am trying to come at this from a good place, but this is really pretty broken, honestly. Not every El Kabong needs to be Quick Draw McGraw. Also, if you don't change the name, this is I think going to need a disclaimer box? Better safe than sorry? --Undead_Knave (talk) 23:39, 14 March 2017 (MDT)

I think I can work with that. With the requirements, I picked out what seemed thematically appropriate, but I guess I did overdo it in hindsight. I'll cut those back a bit. I'll work on the others as well and see what I can fix. Retributive KABOOOOOOOG! was meant as something of a desperate last resort, but look back at it, it is pretty lousy. I'd be open to a name change, although I have no idea how to change the name of the page itself since that seems to be set by hitting the button to enter the creation page. I'll see what other names I can think of, but I'm open to suggestions as well. Halloweenman33 17:02, 15 March 2017 (CST)

I thought of a few potential new names: Knight of Kabong, The Knights Who Say "KABOOOOOONG!" (probably more of a joke name really), Kabongito, Kabongalite, Disciple of Kabong, Warrior of the Strings, and Kabongador. Of those, Kabongdor sounds the best to me. Any thoughts? If none of those sound good, I'm also open to suggestions. Halloweenman33 18:42, 15 March 2017 (CST)

For now, I think I'll go with Kabongador for the name unless I or someone else thinks of something better. Halloweenman33 20:58, 15 March 2017 (CST)

Of those options, I like Knight of Kabong best. The changes are much better, although there are still some issues. Granting a sidekick is a dangerous proposition, just because of the range of options available (is it an unoptimized monk or an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil?). I'll try to get around to a more longscale version of the review of the revision, but I'm heading to bed pretty soon. --Undead_Knave (talk) 01:25, 16 March 2017 (MDT)

I'll switch it to Knight of Kabong then. I didn't think that the sidekick was any more dangerous than the Leadership feat itself, but I could be wrong. I'll reword it a bit to see if that helps. Halloweenman33 9:32, 16 March 2017

It isn't any more dangerous than the Leadership feat itself. The Leadership feat is just a potentially dangerous feat. You don't necessarily have to take it out, it's just basically guaranteed to be Unquant unless you put some kind of stipulation like "NPC classes only" or something on it. --`Undead_Knave (talk)

I added that the Sidekick must start out as an NPC class, must have at least 3 levels in an NPC class, can only cross class into other NPC classes or into support classes like Bard, and can't take prestige classes. That may be overdoing it though, so I may need to consider other options. Template:Halloweenman33 11:56, 16 March 2017 (CST)

I'd still peg it at unquant, since it leaves you open to a TON of cheese. --Ghostwheel (talk) 11:05, 16 March 2017 (MDT)

I'll switch it to NPC class only then. Either that or just scrap it. Whichever would be better. Halloweenman33 12:08, 16 March 2017 (CST)

I also changed it so that the Smart-Alec Sidekick grants a single Follower rather than a Cohort. I'm debating as to whether or not this feature disqualifies them from gaining Leadership as well. Halloweenman33 12:12, 16 March 2017 (CST)

Don't forget to move the page to a new name if you're renaming it. I realize this discussion happened today but I'm entirely too lazy to convert CST or MDT to EST to figure out when these comments actually happened. Also could someone tell me what this is a reference to? I thought I had an idea until I read anthro horse. I'm intrigued. - Aeturo (talk) 15:34, 16 March 2017 (MDT)

How do I do that? It's a reference to an old Hanna-Barbara cartoon from the late 50s to early 60s. El Kabong was the alter ego of a character named Quick Draw McGraw, a cartoon anthropomorphic horse. It was actually a western cartoon with Quick Draw being a sheriff, but he would occasionally put on a mask, hat, and cape and go by the name El Kabong, hitting the bad guys on the head with a guitar. The Smart-Alec Sidekick feature is a reference to Baba Looey, Quick Draw/El Kabong's sidekick in the show. Halloweenman33 16:40, 16 March 2017 (CST)

In the base page, not the talk, hit the more button near Read, Edit, and View History and Move should be in the drop down menu. Also thanks, no wonder I didn't get the reference. That is a long time before me. - Aeturo (talk) 15:44, 16 March 2017 (MDT)

Thanks. I'm only 33, so it's well before my time as well. I just enjoy watching old cartoons, movies, TV shows, etc. Halloweenman33 16:46, 16 March 2017 (CST)

Balance

Just between full BAB and spellcasting progression, this should probably be at the very least High on the balance range. --Ghostwheel (talk) 16:32, 15 March 2017 (MDT)

Thanks. I was making a guess and thought that going for middle ground was a safe bet. Admittedly, I'm somewhat new to homebrewing and still getting a feel for the balancing. Halloweenman33 17:39, 15 March 2017 (CST)

For future reference, it's better to err on the side of too high than too low; the most common complaint about a wiki such as ours is that the material on here is overpowered, which causes a large backlash against most things on the wiki. We avoid that by having the balance range system, and can point to it when someone says that something is overpowered. However, if there is a discrepancy, it means that someone could use it as an argument that the entire wiki is full of mis-rated OP articles, and that the entire balance system is worthless. If, on the other hand, something happens to be too weak for its assigned rating, a DM can easily compensate. But too strong threatens the game balance and gives us a hugely negative rap. --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:50, 15 March 2017 (MDT)

My mistake. Sorry. Halloweenman33 18:51, 15 March 2017 (CST)

No worries. Just remember to indent your comments on talk pages so it's easy to follow the flow of conversation :-) --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:53, 15 March 2017 (MDT)

Also, as I stated earlier, "the "good" saving throws should advance at 2 + half Knight of Kabong level, while Fort save should advance at a third of Knight of Kabong level. Just saying, but if you want ME to edit the stats in, just let me know." --HB Forged (talk) 18:45, 17 March 2018 (MDT)

Sorry. Haven't been on in a while. Might be a little rusty, but I think I got it. --Halloweenman33 (talk) 17:23, 24 August 2018 (CST)