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:Also, you do only have to save once. If the ring would crush you against an object, you make a [[Fortitude]] save for half damage, but either way, you're outside the ring afterwards, and as a result, you don't have to worry about getting straightjacketed when it would have shrunk down enough to encase you all by itself. Ergo, you don't get a Reflex save, because you don't ''need'' to make one. If you don't get crushed or otherwise get outside the ring by the time it's shrunk down enough to completely encapsulate your space, it forms a solid mass of light to encase and immobilize you, but you get a [[Reflex]] save to escape at the last second. So ''holy hold'' has two separate saves for two separate end-states, but any given creature only has to make one or the other. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 05:16, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
::The point is this spell simply requires too much ''work''. 'End-states' are things for flowchart makers and programmers to consider. A bunch of tipsy, Cheetos-powered nerds sitting around a table rolling dice would look at this article and throw up their hands, shout "Yeah, fuck that noise," and go for another pint ''hold monster'' or something of lagerthe sort instead. An ability that doesn't have some profound effect on the game world at large just isn't worth all this effort to understand. --[[User:Sulacu|Sulacu]] ([[User talk:Sulacu|talk]]) 11:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
