Talk:Hivemaster (3.5e Class)

Hive Mind

Might wanna make it so that the intelligent vermin can't perform the aid another action for the Hivemaster, or else we've got nanobots all over again. --Ghostwheel 23:47, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

For clarification, where should that part be included? - TG Cid 19:49, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Well, as written, the Hivemaster Wins D&D at 12th level. He might not get the ability score benefits, but his vermin do, and he has an arbitrary number of them in and on his body (as 1st level Swarm ability). Even with the somewhat non-arbitrary number given ("trillions"), which implies a lower bound of 2 trillion, that still means that his swarm will have an Intelligence and Charisma of ~40 billion, with a Sorcerer caster level of about the same. Which is... slightly broken. --Neofenrir 18:54, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's definitely a work in progress. In D&D the idea of a swarm of Fine creatures is something in the thousands, whereas realistically it's probably somthing significantly higher. "Trillions" of insects was hyperbolizing for the most part, and the hive mind would obviously be limited so that it does not recieve such benefits. Hiveminds are a somewhat tricky matter that I'm still working on. Thanks anyway for pointing it out. - TG Cid 19:49, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

At some point, on the WotC boards (and perhaps in something "official"), it was suggested that a single swarm only count as a single mind/ally. Perhaps that mechanic can be worked in? --Be well 00:00, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

That sounds appropriate. So the hivemaster counts as one, the vermin companion (which I'm going to actually put in detail soon) could count, and the swarms count as one. Thanks. - TG Cid 11:09, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Another possible issue with Hive Mind is that there's no provision against using it on hostile vermin, nor on the number of times the ability can be used. So, the Verminfriend feat and even the capstone ability are overshadowed by this ability, as he can just spend a standard action (I assume, as no definition is given) and have total control over all vermin around him. So there should either be some kind of save, or (and I like this idea better) it should take a decent amount of time to do. Something like 10 minutes or so, so it's never going to be used in combat. --Neofenrir 03:52, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

According to the BoVD's rules, all the hivemind creatures have to be of the same species, a rule that doesn't seem very applicable here given that the hivemaster and her vermin are different species anyway. Other than that (and the fact that they have to be within a certain distance of each other), there are no written rules to govern hostilities between them. I'm assuming that since the hivemaster lacks a way to definitively summon a swarm that exists as its own entity (her swarm ability disperses in the same round), then the only real way for him to garner any power with it is to draw other vermin to your side. The hivemaster also lacks any method to do this, as Verminfriend and Lord of the Flies only prevent the vermin from attacking and do not transfer allegiance.

My best guess is that the Hivemind rules were made under the assumption that all of the vermin would be hostile against the players and, by association, allied with themselves. The original Vermin Lord could cast spells (i.e., summon swarm) and therfore could create his own hivemind. Since the the hivemaster cannot do this, I was thinking that perhaps instead of her swarms only counting as one individual, they would count as a number that corresponds with her level (perhaps 50 per level, as the biggest power jumps as far as a hivemind are concerned seem to be 500 and 1000). Outside vermin would then not count. - TG Cid 12:16, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

Balance Point

I don't think the Hivemaster meets the criteria for a Wizard balance point. I haven't seen any of the Hivemaster feats that the class is supposed to get (do those exist yet?) but they'd have to be some pretty damn good feats to get it up to Wizard-level power. The only possible method (thus far) of getting abilities to rival the Wizard is Hivemind, but you need a crap-ton of vermin and DM fiat for that, so that can't really be counted. This isn't a complaint or anything — I like the class, I just think it's closer to a Rogue than a Wizard. --Neofenrir 08:20, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

I'm somewhat in agreement with you, but the feats are what were supposed to push it to that level. The feats that I have made so far can be found here, and the complete list (so far at least, as more may come) is in here. - TG Cid 18:36, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

Swollen Swarm

I think the "does not take damage" line should be moved to the 1st level Swarm ability. Even though it only affects a 5-foot square, as written, if the hivemaster uses Swarm against a Medium or smaller enemy grappling him (or against small creatures otherwise attacking him in his square), until 8th level he takes damage and is subject to the nausea effect, which doesn't make any sense to me. --Neofenrir 11:34, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Done. - TG Cid 11:40, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

Wonderings

Okay, I was reading this through, and a few questions came to mind, and I was hoping that you could clarify them:

• Vermin Companion: I'm confused by the line Instead, the vermin companion gains size as it gains Hit Dice, advancing to the next level of monstrous vermin. Does that mean that they gain a size per HD? Do they improve their strength when they increase in size? Is it one size per 3 HD?
• Aspect of the Vermin: After you gain this class feature, can you go ahead and make all of your future feats be Hivemaster feats? Or is it only one feat per time that class feature is gained?
• Spew Vermin: Is this a standard action?
• Swollen Swarm: Can I still use spew vermin if I do this? If I can, and pick a 10 foot square my breath weapon already covers, do I deal damage twice to that place?
• Hive Mind: Why follow the BoVD rules for hiveminds? Why not custom make some more player friendly rules?
• Appendage Control: So, if you had two claw attacks, you now have three claw attacks? What if you had four claw attacks? Do you get six claw attacks? What if you had a Proboscis and a Bite? Would those count as a pair?
• Super Swarm: Can I use my swarm as a standard action, a move action, and a swift action, and hit three 20 foot squares, all at the same time? What about the same 20-foot square three different times?

I have a few other questions, but they deal with the feats, and should be posted on their talk pages. --Mock Turtle 14:57, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, one by one:

• Vermin Companion: The discrepancy between normal Strength gain and gains with size has been rectified; the Vermin companion only gains Strength from its size increases. The Dexterity score goes up normally, but is essentially counteracted by the decreased Dexterity that comes with size increases. This doesn't do too much, except keep the vemrin companion's Dexterity relatively stable and higher if you choose to keep it in its smaller form.
• Aspect of the Vermin: Sure, you could probably take additional feats with your regular feats; you just can't take other feats with the class feature (like fighter bonus feats, basically).
• Spew Vermin: Is a standard action, and counts as the use of your swarm attack (see Super Swarm below).
• Hive Mind: I used the BoVD rules because there honestly wasn't much to go on that I could find. But now that you bring it up, a revision could be called for. I haven't changed anything about yet, so I'm open to suggestions.
• Appendage Control: This was based off of the Rapidstrike feat from the Draconomicon (I would have cited it more directly, but I don't believe it applies to vermin). It's basically encouraging paired attacks, since it only applies to identical pairs (i.e. two pincers or two two claws, which I have added into the description for clarification), but I figured it was more or less offset by the fact that most of the individual attacks (gore, proboscis, etc.) carried additional effects or were at least stronger. And yes, if you originally have four you end up with six. You essentially rape people with natural weapons.
• Super Swarm: I forgot to add that you are limited to one swarm attack per round. The inclusion of the decreased action required to use the swarm was supposed to encourage people to use their plethora of natural weapons instead of purely relying on the swarm for combat.

I think that covers about everything here. I'll get to the feats pages separately. Thank you for the feedback, and post any suggestions you may have concerning improvements to the hivemind. - TG Cid 16:52, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Well, with Vermin Companion, I was really wondering when exactly the vermin grew in size. Course, you also still likely want to explicitly state all the stat changes that occur with the vermin. Aspect of the Vermin, Spew Vermin, and Super Swarm all looks pretty good, but you should move the The hivemaster is limited to one swarm attack per round line up to the Swarm ability description, and add on a part like: even as she gains other ways to use the ability, later on.

Appendage Control is pretty weird, but, I guess it works out fine. Course, about Hivemind, you could use something like the Formian Hive Mind ability as a starting point, and add on stuff that you think should be on there, like, everything in the hivemind gains a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage versus any target that another member of the hivemind has already attacked, and the swarm attack counts as an attack from the bugs. --Mock Turtle 06:54, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Clarified Monstrosity and made some changes to the Vermin Companion, which now has the same Con as the hivemaster since Con doesn't go up with size. Everything else is basically determined by HD using the monster entries for each size of monstrous vermin. I pretty much did away with the animal companion thing. A different table might come in later, but will probably take some time. I'll work on a new Hivemind as well. - TG Cid 22:10, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

My only suggestion

I really like this class, but it seems the natural armor bonus gets really high and its stackable. maybe nerf it to or 1/5 class level for +5 at level 20 instead of +10. --NameViolation 17:22, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

What if the hivemaster couldn't wear armor without losing the natural armor bonus? I think that's what was originally instended, and it would cut down on the ability for AC modifiers to stack. - TG Cid 18:14, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

That's not really that big of a deal, as you already discourage armor at level 6, and before that, the bonus is too small to worry about. --Mock Turtle 06:54, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Quick Question?

Does the Swarm attack have a limit on usage? Is it a move action, swift action, or full round action? Shouldn't jump be a class skill? 75.107.48.232 22:48, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Swarm is usuable once per round, but other than that it is essentially limitless. It's a standard action at level 1 (didn't actually have that in and has thus been rectified), which improves to move-equivalent at level 8 and swift at level 16 for fun with natural attacks. And yes, Jump should be a class skill (it has been added). - TG Cid 23:00, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks man. I love the class. The only problem seems to be the short skill list but I feel as though that is intentional. 75.107.48.232 23:18, February 16, 2010 (UTC)