User talk:Spazalicious Chaos/Magical Cosplayer (3.5e Class)

Lo, the Zodar

Not giving this a full review, but a point to be aware of, particularly when giving open ended things, is unintended consequences. Note the Zodar found in Fiend Folio, page 199. Be aware that being able to summon it (ablit at ECL 18) will give you Wish whenever you want, no cost. I'm sure there's other abuses, but I've not looked into them yet. -- Eiji-kun 01:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

At 20th level it would be available, and by then there is already wish flingers everywhere. And that be a very specific circumstance. I was thinking more of avoiding cosplayers just donning a mech suit whenever they were facing something poisonous or a rogue, hence the "do not gain construct traits" thing.

Also, this is a monster class when you get down to it. There is nothing this class can do to break the game that a wizard can't do with polymorph and sooner. Thus, unless someone out there makes a LA 0 adamantine coated null monster template, I'm sure that the cosplayer will not kill a game.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 01:18, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Then why is it Rogue level? Though, IMO, it is either Wizard or Unquantifable. Probably the latter. -- Eiji-kun 02:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

++To Eiji. You get "wish flingers everywhere" in wizard-level games. Not rogue-level ones. --Ghostwheel 02:35, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

You get them in rogue games, too. It's just rogue wishers are A) one trick ponies, B) get it as a very late game ability, such 20+, or C) the wish is limited. Like, only if you are in a particular circumstance and only if nothing else can get in your way... huh, the cosplayer fits in that category. However, you did inadvertantly draw my attention to yet another advantage mecha suit has over costume.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

And done. Now the Zodar argument goes into effect at around level 25 by my math, at which point the balancing rules break down in every direction anyway. Also, the number of mechs you can have in your hammer space garage is severely limited.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:50, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Using wish by it's very nature makes the character in question rather antithetical to a one-trick pony. Wish lets you do pretty much whatever you want within its rules, which is a lot. - TG Cid 08:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Btw where are you getting ECL 20th and 25th? It says "a construct of a CR your lvl -2". Zodar is CR 16. -- Eiji-kun 08:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

And meduim sized. Uber mecha leaps that up to CR 23.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 17:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Wish is basically the upper bounding definition of wizard level. Yeah. Wizard level has an UPPER bound and it is wish. Anything past that can be called Pun-Pun level: you are not playing a game at that point. Period. Don't be stupid. --Aarnott 18:04, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

A loose reading

Any construct with my CR -2 eh? Suppose I'm level 10. How about a Effigy Creature (+1 CR) Stone Half Golem (+3 CR) Half-Ogre (+0 CR --> there is no reason I can't apply this template to an Ogre) Half-Minotaur (+0 CR) Ogre (CR 3) Barbarian 1? Since it's any possible construct, we can assume this one was REALLY lucky and passed all its Will saves for the extra golem arms. Bring along 4 greatswords (approximately 7 damage average). With 47 Str raging, this gives around 34 base damage per weapon (before anything other than just Str and weapon damage) that will almost certainly hit. With 8 arms and a gore, that is ~160 damage. I'm just illustrating a point. There are much more broken things that can be done.

And of course, a warforged sorcerer level 8 would be a valid option. Or a effigy catoblepas for a death ray.

Yes. This class, as written, is very wizard level. --Aarnott 20:15, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Read the prerequisites, sir

Pathetisad requires a prior morale penalty. Something which could not possibly have happened for a level 1 character. --Foxwarrior 02:14, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Any recommended replacemnt?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

More Hillarity

This was still open in my browser when I got to work, and I gave it another read. Bind item doesn't restrict what qualifies as an item. I'll bind a mountain. Then I will summon it in my hand while I'm over top the orc encampment. Splat?

Really though, the whole "recharge" thing is wizard level on its own. There is a thing called a Luck Blade. You probably haven't read my comments yet, but I'm just adding more evidence that this class is wizard level. --Aarnott 16:49, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Hence I relabeled it. Done yet?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 18:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Yay! Now that it is tagged wizard and you actually agree I can give some constructive comments without feeling like I'm talking to deaf ears. I should preface my comments with the fact that I'm mostly interested in improving this class because I think it is a pretty fun concept.

First off, this class is terrible at 1st level. After a few rounds, this character becomes a weak commoner. And LA +0 templates aren't really that great either. Instead, here is an idea:

You start the game choosing 3 LA +0 races, in addition to your own race. As a full-round action, you can change into a member of one of these races, gaining any racial benefit of the race that you want (you choose which benefits to take). You can also keep the benefits of your own race. You become whatever type that race is and if your type changes you gain a subtype for your real race. You can have this ability active whenever you want. These are your costumes.

That doesn't cover the bab/saves, which templates were supposed to cover (somehow, although it doesn't work that way). Instead, for each costume, you can pick a specialization:

Warrior: When you wear this costume gain bonus feats as a fighter, +4 hp per HD, all weapon/armor proficiencies, good bab, good fort, something else so it doesn't utterly suck

Mage: When you wear this costume, you can cast a single 1st level spell at-will (scales to a single spell of each spell level), good will save.

Beast: When you wear this costume, you gain a LA +1 creature template, you can pick a LA +1 race, or you can pick a CR 1 monster. Scales as you had before for the LA, and for monsters CR = HD.

--> you can come up with more

That way the character actually has something interesting to do at 1st level. When they don the costume, they actually become something like the character they are trying to emulate. I'll probably have more comments later, but there's a start. --Aarnott 19:20, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I think you are misreading costume. As written you get the base attack bonus and good saves of any template you pick if the template changes your type, which is what 70% of templates do. In effect, you are asking me to foul up it's one good design with bad writing and limited options.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 22:20, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Limited options? I'll ignore the bad writing part since the random ideas I threw together above is at least as good as what you actually publish. Having (up to) 4 rounds of a LA+0 template as your only class feature at first level seems like limited options. The template giving BAB and saves somewhat makes sense now, although some clarification would definitely improve the article.

Now, suppose that you just made it last forever (or have it usable frequent enough to matter). Is a LA+0 template any good? We have set the balance point at wizard and this class at some levels can do wizard level stuff. At other levels it can't even come close to a monk. This is very bad design.

What I'm suggesting is a trademark of wizard level classes: versatility. I'm also suggesting abilities that are always available because there is nothing worse than being completely out of abilities when your teammates want to keep going. It's a problem with the design with many WotC classes, including the wizard itself. I mean, really, once his spells are gone, he's a commoner with a pet rat.

Now, I slightly miswrote the "Beast" option, since it was basically geared to act exactly like what you already had for costume, plus be able to do some other things. Here's a rewrite of it, so you might get what I meant:

Beast (Creature Template): When you wear this costume, you gain a LA +1 (or LA +0) creature template (you do not need to meet the pre-requisites for the template). Treat your Magical Cosplayer levels as hit dice of a creature of your type for the purposes of base attack bonus and base saves (your type may change while you wear this costume).

Beast (Race): When you wear this costume, your race becomes a LA +1 race instead of the normal LA +0 race for this costume. Treat your Magical Cosplayer levels as hit dice of a creature of your type for the purposes of base attack bonus and base saves (your type may change while you wear this costume).

Beast (Monster): When you wear this costume, you transform into a monster with CR = your magical cosplayer levels. You can advance your HD in this form by as many non-magical cosplayer class levels you have.

So, yeah. What I'm suggesting is basically adding a bunch of options for your 1st level cosplayers, bringing the power up to wizard level for 1st level (from below monk level), and also adding in a bunch of elements of good class design. --Aarnott 22:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I had a different idea- make Chibi more useful and first level. This fits very well with the direction this class seems to go- support squishy that later becomes a combat brute.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 19:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Really?

Deletion? The class stays true to it's concept, becoming closer with each edit. If anything, players of this class have to deal with their former support squishy suddenly becoming a tank. So, are you telling me, flat out, that I must abbandon concept and trash this entire project, or can we work together to get the idea clearer?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 04:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

While I don't think the 'joke' of the class is strong enough to actually make a whole class around it, but have you considered trying to impliment the dresssphere system into D&D, from FFX-2? Because when I think 'cosplayer class' I think dressspheres. Also in that vein, the Master of Many Masks PrC. -- Eiji-kun 04:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)