Talk:Maneuver-Like Abilities (3.5e Variant Rule)

How exactly are these "maneuver-like abilities" and not simply "maneuvers"? This is essentially identical to just giving monsters a specific set of martial maneuvers and a full-round recovery -- I honestly see little purpose to making this new rule.

Also, why does the monster get the best of their mental abilities to the save DC, when each particular maneuver tells you which ability score is to be used? It's different from spellcasting in that way. --DanielDraco 03:08, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Can't the same arguement be that that SLAs is nothing but sorcerer casting without the restriction of needing a full list? Same here.

Hmm, that's odd. I didn't add that second part. I would expect it would follow the save for whatever maneuver it is. I'mma remove that, it can be reverted if it can be justified. -- Eiji-kun 04:05, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

It really can't, IMO. SLAs do not count as the ability to cast a spell for prereq purposes, cannot have abilities that apply to spells used on them**, cannot be used to counterspell, cannot be counterspelled, are often usable at will, have a whole slew of feats usable only with them, and, most notably, do not require any components. Maneuvers don't have nearly so many fiddly little bits to strip off to make them into a innate abilities for monsters. And even if they did, how much sense does it really make that a carefully-practiced martial arts move is an innate and untrained ability for anything?

**These first two apply also to MLAs, but since (presumably) only monsters get MLAs, neither of those things really matter for them. --DanielDraco 06:08, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't think I addressed the issue if MLAs count for maneuver pre-reqs or not and could go either way on the matter. And the 2nd one doesn't apply at you said. As far as counterspelling, it's a moot point. There's no "countermaneuver" that exists, nor have I introduced any sort of metamanuver abilities or how they interact with MLAs. Nothing really stops people from making MLAs at will, or limited in times per day, but that kind of thing I leave to individual monsters. The default is just as it's written, and I have made reservations of alterations on the matter. I believe some of my higher level monsters use warblade refreshing, for example.

But it can make sense of innate martial arts. They are maneuvers of instinct, rather than training. They may look the same, or they make look different, but the result is the same. A snake's stance when it's getting ready to strike, the swiftness of its bite, the way it intimidates the opponent through pose and seeming to increase in size... all these things could be considered maneuvers of their own. The trick is just, "is there amaneuver for it?" -- Eiji-kun 07:15, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Those things are exactly my point. Those are the differences between SLAs and spells. There are no such differences here. And with the refreshing mechanic being mutable, that removes the one thing that distinguishes MLAs from maneuvers. The only potential difference I can see is the possibility to use them per day or at will, and really, that would be more simply denoted as, "Martial Mooks can initiate Elder Mountain Hammer at will at IL Xth. They do not need to ready it."

As for the innate martial arts thing...fair enough. --DanielDraco 10:16, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Well the big thing separating MLAs from normal maneuvers are twofold: One is that they don't need class levels or a logical progression from 1st to 9th level, they can have whatever levels. The other is the lack of pre-reqs, so you can have a monster who only knows that Omnislash 9th level maneuver from Diamond Mind, and it's ok cause it's an MLA. It wouldn't be legal to only have that as a initiator, you need four other diamond mind maneuvers. -- Eiji-kun 11:19, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Those changes are very simple, though. They don't really require a new set of rules. I point again to my above example. --DanielDraco 20:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

The alternative is just individually labeling "this monster has (possibly illegal) maneuvers for some reason and this is how it refreshes." Yeah, some have custom refreshes, but when you got a ton of monsters with the same basic power set, doesn't it make sense to write it down and codify it?

Wait.... why... is the tag Variant Rule? I am certain this was in the glossary with monster powers. -- Eiji-kun 21:39, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

You should probably decide if you want this one or the creature ability one, and delete the other. I can't see a reason for both. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 22:59, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Ability one is the logical one. Is there a way to see if anything is linking to this? I'm trying to figure out why this page was made when we have the others... check to missing details and all whatnot. -- Eiji-kun 03:37, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

There's a link in the sidebar, under the Toolbox heading. --DanielDraco 03:43, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, assuming you're using the default skin you'll want to click on "What links here" under the "Toolbox" heading in the nav bar on the right while on the page you want to see links to (so the article page and not the talk page). That will give you a list, and that will also include auto-generated links from ask queries. I've already cleaned things up though, and aside from the link on your user page everything else is set for this to be removed. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 04:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)