Talk:Acid Rain (3.5e Spell)

Ratings

Blocked Rating

Mecheye dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

The reason listed does not sufficiently justify the rating, and the rater has not responded to a request for additional information.This is far too powerful for a 3rd level Spell “Acid Fog” also deals 2d6 Acid damage per round over a 20’ area and lasts for 1 Round/Level. It also reduces the speed of any target that passes though it and has a range of Medium – This is a 6th level Spell from the PHB. Similarly, “Holy Storm” deals 2d6 damage to Evil-type creatures as well as imposes a penalty to Spot and Listen. All other variables are the same aside from the 20’ range. This is a 3rd level Spell from the SPC. Finally, the baseline for most damage-dealing Spells is “Fireball” – a 3rd level Spell that deals 1d6 damage per Caster Level over a 20’ radius, at long range. Taking this into account, “Acid Rain” would therefore be equivalent to a 7th level Spell when factoring in the increased range and ability to reduce the combat effectiveness of those affected. For this to function as a 3rd level Spell, the range should be reduced to Medium and the weapon degradation should be removed; The damage should be reduced to 1d8 if it can be cast anywhere, or it can remain at 2d6 providing it cannot be cast indoors or with a low ceiling. If you want to keep the weapon degradation as-is, then the damage should be reduced to 1d6 Acid damage and the Spell Level increased to 4th if you allow a Save or 5th with no save.

Have you noticed the "Very High" balance rating on the spell? --Ghostwheel (talk) 08:13, 29 August 2019 (MDT)

I have no idea how to properly reply to that question in any official way, nor was I notified of it being asked, so I'm just posting my reply here!

I did read up on it, however that does not matter because this isn't being compered to the abilities of classes that are not Very High Balance; We are comparing it to other Very High Balance abilities (Other Sorcerer/Wizard Spells).

In order to make it more apparent that this Spell is too powerful for 3rd Level, we must compare it to other Spells or abilities available to Sorcerer/Wizards that are similar in style and capability. In this case, the closes available analogue is Acid Fog, which has similar capabilities in regards to damage, area of effect, and duration. it is also a 6th Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spell as opposed to this one which is 3rd.

Lets go over my reasoning once again on why this Spell is severely underestimated as a 3rd level Spell.

1. It is Long Range instead of Medium Range. At a Caster Level of 5th (Minimum for a Wizard to cast this) this Spell can affect targets 560' away (580' if you include the radius). A Medium Range Spell can only affect a target 140' (160') away.
2. It reduces the effectiveness of any offensive and defensive abilities those within may possess by directly damaging or destroying their armor and weaponry. Acid Fog, being based on Solid Fog, only imparts a -2 penalty to Attack and Damage rolls. This imparts a -4 penalty to Damage Rolls Per Round a weapon is affected, as well as reduces the Armor Bonus of any Armor being worn.
3. Third, the effects of this degradation persists after the Spell ends. Even after 2 Rounds of exposure, a non-Magical Longsword and Large Steel Shield is destroyed. Magical items repair themselves over time and cannot seem to be destroyed by the Spell, however this does not matter when the Spell is used against NPC's since they do not have to contend with equipment maintenance.
4. Fourth, Acid Fog can be dispersed with heavy winds. This cannot. This may not be a thing very often, but it is included here for the same of completeness.

In counterpoint, Acid Fog DOES prevent non-Spell ranged attacks, though this is a product of Solid Fog, a 4th Level Spell.

Based on that evidence, I feel my point is fully justified. This Spell is too powerful for 3rd level. Mecheye (talk) 00:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

There's a big difference; acid fog carries with it the effect of solid fog, which is incredibly amazing crowd control, something this spell lacks. In addition, 2d6 damage to a target is close to effectively nothing by level 5-7, there's nothing that stops people from getting out, and the penalty to weapons or AC is fairly small in VH territory, and on top of that, many enemies either don't use weapons or have magic ones, and allowing a Fortitude save.

The reason that acid fog is so good is because of the CC, not because of the damage. It can take creature multiple turns to make their way out of a solid/acid fog, while they can leave this one in a single turn quite easily. If Acid Fog didn't have the CC component, it would be a Low spell, most probably. Thus, it's not a fair analogy to compare them. --Ghostwheel (talk) 00:46, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, good shout. You have a valid point with that. I can see how this can have lower versatility at higher levels thanks to the ability to just walk out of it, and I didn't consider typical monster distribution at higher levels. This may be good where it is at. I'll have to run it a few times and see how it works. Mecheye (talk) 15:51, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

	Tarkisflux favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	While it doesn't do great damage in a fight, it is a reasonably good gear debuffer. And it's a solid choke point spell. But its real strength is probably in its ability to chew through walls and supports, which it can do more efficiently than other direct damage spells as soon as it is cast. Terrain modification ftw.

	Aarnott likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	Seems like a decent spell to cause some AoE damage and debuffs against weapon-using enemies. It certainly could have creative uses as well, such as burning a hole in a thatched roof cottage.

Comments

There seems to be a lot of information missing with this spell:

• When does the damage happen?
• -4 to damage rolls is fine, but it is unclear when a weapon would melt. It's not really obvious when damage reaches a value of 0.
• Spell Resistance says "See text", but there is no mention of it.

The damage is pretty low, which is probably ok since it has no save.

All in all, this spell just needs some lovin'.

Made some edits to address the concerns suggested. I think the damage is a bit low, but yeah, given the lack of a save I thought it was OK for a level 3. - TG Cid 23:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Damage still isn't really addressed. What is 0 base damage? Like, if I have a greatsword (2d6 damage), is it done after 2 rounds (7 average damage - 8 < 0) or 3 rounds (12 max damage - 12 = 0)? --Aarnott 15:02, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The intent was when your base damage cannot be positive (so the penalty to base weapon damage would essentially reduce any base damage roll to 0, but not other additions that don't actually come from the weapon itself), the weapon is effectively destroyed. Therefore, the second option that you presented above. - TG Cid 03:58, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

More comments! The weapon damage reduction threw me at first, but after digging into it a bit more it seems a reasonable approximation of acid damage effects. Weapons normally take full damage from acid and tend to have surprisingly low hp, so making them die out after a few rounds is basically fine (though I'd argue it's close to -2 per round, not -4). The armor one works similarly, since armor has 5hp per point of AC. Which is about 2 points of AC damage per 3 dice on average, and close enough to the 1 point per round listed. But they don't scale with the damage dice, which is a bit weird.

But rather than talk about fix the damage scaling, which I have ideas on, I want to point out that scaling the damage and the duration is weird. It starts off not doing a lot other than melting weapons and armor and chewing through thatch, and winds up melting 20 inches of stone over 2 minutes. I'd scale one or the other, but not both (with my preference being 2d6 acid for 1 rnd / 2 levels, which is close to what it starts as anyway). The long range already does a lot to make it VH on its own.

Side note - it makes me sad that the spell can't be repaired by make whole and similar magic. Nevermind. There aren't spells that fix melted or corroded :-(. This oversight makes me sad instead, not acid rain itself, so perhaps I shall go and write some. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 22:14, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Too powerful for 3rd level

Ignore the below comment - This may be fine where it is. Mecheye (talk) 15:53, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I added more detailed analysis above.Mecheye (talk) 00:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

This is far too powerful for a 3rd level Spell

"Acid Fog" also deals 2d6 Acid damage per round over a 20’ area and lasts for 1 Round/Level. It also reduces the speed of any target that passes though it and has a range of Medium – This is a 6th level Spell from the PHB.

Similarly, "Holy Storm" deals 2d6 damage to Evil-type creatures as well as imposes a penalty to Spot and Listen. All other variables are the same aside from the 20’ range. This is a 3rd level Spell from the SPC.

Finally, the baseline for most damage-dealing Spells is "Fireball" – a 3rd level Spell that deals 1d6 damage per Caster Level over a 20’ radius, at long range.

Taking this into account, "Acid Rain" would therefore be equivalent to a 7th level Spell when factoring in the increased range and ability to reduce the combat effectiveness of those affected.

For this to function as a 3rd level Spell, the range should be reduced to Medium and the weapon degradation should be removed; The damage should be reduced to 1d8 if it can be cast anywhere, or it can remain at 2d6 providing it cannot be cast indoors or with a low ceiling. If you want to keep the weapon degradation as-is, then the damage should be reduced to 1d6 Acid damage and the Spell Level increased to 4th if you allow a Save or 5th with no save.
Mecheye (talk) 07:29, 29 August 2019 (MDT)