Talk:Euphoric Blade (3.5e Feat)
Ratings
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Leziad likes this article and rated it 3 of 4. |
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| Decently powerful way to combine wild surge and soulknife. It has a harsh cost but that can be fixed with casting recovery feats in VH and is probably decently balanced for H. |
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Franken Kesey dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4. |
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| No other standard feat compares to that. Common standard feats give a +2 bonus to attack or damage, or a +1d6 to damage (or +3.5). Sure the 3.5 damage of standard is low. Having a feat which gives a +10 bonus to damage overall would not be bad. But this is far from it! Also, the damage output is the same as a +7 flaming-frost-shock-vicious-collision-acid blast shortsword, which is +19 total and costs +7,220,320 gp. This is well outside what even a 20th level player can afford. |
It does not mention if their soulknife and wilder classes stack for the purposes of powers known, power points or manifester level.--Franken Kesey 21:25, 5 May 2019 (MDT)
- On top of that, I would argue that the manifesting progression of the wilder is the best part of it. As for soulknife... well, the class *is* Moderate level, and this brings it up to High-ish? So I don't see what the problem with that is. --Ghostwheel (talk) 19:51, 5 May 2019 (MDT)
- Wait, are you stating that manifester level also stacks with this feat?--Franken Kesey 19:53, 5 May 2019 (MDT)
- Rating says: The issue is not balance level. It is the power gained from a single feat. At minimum you need 4 levels in wilder and 3 in soulknife to take it. You're complaining that the feat is too powerful when you have to make yourself suck by taking 3 levels in soulknife in order to get it? Wut? The feat doesn't even begin to make up for that. Surgo (talk) 21:27, 5 May 2019 (MDT)
- Will show how powerful this is. But first need an answer from the author on if this stacks manifester levels (liked your answer Surgo, but then Ghost suggested they stacked; thus need to confirm). Secondly, it states it stacks mind blade, what aspects (i.e., just the +1 per four, or +1 per four AND enchantment, or plus weapon focus, or plus bladewind, throw blade etc.).--Franken Kesey 21:42, 5 May 2019 (MDT)
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Is the progression of mind blade just the +1 every four, or is it +1 AND the enhancements?--Franken Kesey 21:56, 5 May 2019 (MDT)
- Could make an argument based on text for either one, but I'd assume both. Surgo (talk) 22:01, 5 May 2019 (MDT)
DPR with this Feat
The Balanced Wealth variant rule was used for all the below numbers. With the assumption that the primary ability score starts at 18, and a racial bonus of +2. AC is calculated as ECL*1.5+10. This only uses the greater two-weapon fighting feat (and prerequisite feats) for simplicity. Most would optimize this even more.
This requires one round to prepare by manifesting powers, thus multiply DPR by two to find damage in final round.
- At 20th: offensive precognition (19pp, +7 attack) and offensive prescience (19pp, +8 damage; quickened, surged). Total DPR vs. 40AC =158.59
- 1st Mind Blade attack: 1d6 base+5d8 psychic strike+5 mind blade+enhancements (Keen, Vicious+2d6, Psychokinetic+1d4, Psychokinetic Burst+1d4, +1d6 on crit)+3 euphoria+8 power (see above)+13((20Str+16BW-10)/2) =67
- All other Mind Blade attacks: 1d6 base+5 mind blade+enhancements (Keen, Vicious+2d6, Psychokinetic+1d4, Psychokinetic Burst+1d4, +1d6 on crit)+3 euphoria+8 power (see above)+13((20Str+16BW-10)/2) =44.5
- 1st Critical Damage: 44.5(all minus strike)x2+3.5+13Str+22.5 =128.5
- All other Critical Damage: 44.5x2+3.5+13Str =105.5
- Attack: Strength modifier 13, BAB +15, +5 weapon, +3 euphoria, +7 powers, -2 two weapon fighting (greater two-weapon fighting feat), +1 weapon focus (psychic warrior), total attack =+42/+37/+32/+42/+37/+32
Whereas a rogue with similar stats has a DPR of 131.55. --Franken Kesey 22:59, 5 May 2019 (MDT)
- Psychic strike is a move action and only affects the first hit made after you use it... Also, what's up with that "+10 weapon" -- enhancement bonus on mind blade is only +5. Surgo (talk) 23:03, 5 May 2019 (MDT)
- +5 from class and +5 from balanced wealth. Still a single feat to make them above rogue level. Still significantly more damage gained than any SRD feat.--Franken Kesey 07:22, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
- Where is all this hostility coming from? I based this rating on a metric, for otherwise there is no way to measure it against other stuff. My rating is in higher quality than most because of this. Many ratings on this wiki just say "Well done." "Good job." etc. without mentioning math or showing comparison. I have positively rated Leziad's LA feat, which is also a multiclass feat. And further, the vast majority of my ratings are positive. However, certain articles do have mechanical issues which make them worthy of negative ratings. This is one of those articles. The biggest issue is the amount of damage and features gained from one feat. This even gives more boons than most ranking feats.--Franken Kesey 08:27, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
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You have failed to excuse this classes massive bonus to features from a single feat. Common standard feats give a +2 bonus to attack or damage, or a +1d6 to damage (or +3.5). This feat gives 4d8+5 plus +5 worth of enchantments (if you only rank in wilder after), or +2 euphoria plus +4 wild surge (if you only rank in soulknife). At 20th, a mostly wilder (17 and 3) with Vicious+2d6, Collision+5 and Psychokinetic Burst+1d4 enchantments increases damage total to 4d8+5+2d6+5+1d4+1 (or 38.5 on average). No other feat compares to that.
Sure the 3.5 damage of standard is low. Having a feat which gives a +10 bonus overall would not be bad. But this is far from it giving 38.5 extra damage!--Franken Kesey 09:15, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
- Except it's not giving you +5 worth of enhancements. You already get that for free with Balanced Wealth. All it gives you is Psychic Strike, which you have to trade three Wilder levels for, which makes you weaker. Taking this feat as a Wilder makes you *worse*. Surgo (talk) 09:37, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
- Fixed the stacking. Used the variant to balance against rogue, not all GMs will allow it. This feat gives the +5 from mind blade PLUS the +5 enchantments (which in the above example gives 2d6+5+1d4). Thus would give a mostly wilder +38.5 extra damage and +6 to attack.--Franken Kesey 09:55, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
- You have yet to defend the +38.5 extra damage and +6 attack from this feat. You are grasping at straws, the damage boost must be indefensible then. I need to go because I have a life. Add below a defense of a single feat giving a +38.5 bonus to damage and +6 to attack. Omit this if there is no defense for the boon.--Franken Kesey 10:13, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
- So the complaint is... it's a feat... that makes you more powerful... when you combine two classes together, one stronger, one less strong... making the stronger one worse... and the weaker one stronger... all the while being labeled as a High feat? And at the same time having a misunderstanding of how the system and/or the base classes work?
- Man, what does that say about the wildknife, where you don't even need to pay a feat to get all the class abilities of both sides? --Ghostwheel (talk) 12:52, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
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Surgo/Leziad, this gives more than a +5 mind blade. As noted above, this also gives +5 in enhancements to that mind blade (which is the beginning of the problem). Then add the +4d8 from psychic surge and +1 from euphoria. Edit, now that the psychic strike is linked to wild surge, it adds +5d8 (6d8 total), and +1 to euphoria (+2 total). Recent edits make this feat add even more damage 44 total, and +7 to attack.
Therefore this is not like buying a +5 sword. It is like buying a +7 flaming-frost-shock-vicious-collision-acid blast shortsword, which is +19 total and costs +7,220,320 gp. This is well outside what even a 20th level player can afford.
Players wanting to be psionic rogues are greatly over shawdowed by the damage boost of this feat. Plus the feat has more versatility than a rogue.
Lastly, the lost of 9th level powers is a drawback. But they still have access to powerful 8th level. Plus wilder power progression. The damage synergy is potent especially with a combat build.
Ghostwheel, you are a hypocrite for stating that the Ascended Super Saiyan was overpowered. It only gives a bonus of +10 to strength and dexterity (+5 damage, +5 attack). Meanwhile this gives +44 damage and +7 attack. Utility abilities of strength and dex come no where near compensating to the power of this feat.
Your statement is flat out incorrect, the wildknife does not get all abilities of both classes. And it has only moderate power progression. Put criticism of other articles on the appropriate page. This talk page is for problems with this article.--Franken Kesey 16:55, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
- First of all, you are under a big misconception. A mind blade can have a total of +5 from the mind blade itself, and then another +4 in properties. That's a total of a +9 weapon, which is equivalent to any other +9 weapon, or 162k gold, which is eminently viable for level 20 characters.
- Second, let's compare this apples to apples rather than apples to oranges. We'll make them both very basic magic damage focused weapons, +5 Flaming Frost Shock Corrosive, giving +1d6 fire, cold, electricity, and acid damage. So a similar weapon of each does 1d8 + 5d6 + 5 before stats. The wilder has far worse powers for actually being in melee compared to even a psychic warrior, so we'll use that as our comparison.
- Now let's look at the actual numbers. If we give the Euphoric Blade a round to buff, using Wild Surge to its maximum benefit... they've got around a 50% chance of losing their next turn. So that's 1.5 rounds spent buffing, effectively, over 2 rounds. We'll continue this into the third round, just to make sure they even have a chance to attack. We'll say that at least one of their Wild Surge attempts succeeded, giving them the following stats:
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Dexterity: +12; Strenth: +5; BAB +14; Weapon: 1d8 + 4d6 + 5 (magic) + 5 (strength) -
Buffs: Offensive Precognition (+9 to attack), Offensive Prescience (+8 to damage), Surging Euphoria (+3 to attacks and damage, increase to +4 if we activate Psychic Strike) -
Attack: 12 (Dex) + 14 (BAB) + 5 (Magic) + 9 (Offensive Precognition) + 4 (Wild Surge) = +44 -
Damage: 1d8 (Base) + 5 (Strength) + 4d6 (Magic) + 5d8 (Psychic Strike) + 5 (Strength) + 9 (Offensive Prescience) + 4 (Wild Surge) = 6d8 + 4d6 + 10, or 64 on average in a single hit. -
So in a single round, they use their move action to trigger Psychic Strike, then attack. Let's assume they hit, and did average damage of... 64. Multiply that by 1.5 (since there's around a 50% chance you did nothing during the second turn) and divide it by 3 (since this is over 3 rounds), and you have a total of 32 DPR. Does not seem impressive.
- Now let's look at a Psychic Warrior.
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Strength: +12; BAB +15; Weapon: 2d6 + 4d6 + 5 (two-hander, why not) -
Buffs: Offensive Precognition (+5 to attack), Form of Doom (+4 to strength) -
Primary Attack: 14 (Str) + 15 (BAB) + 5 (Magic) + 5 (Offensive Precognition) = +39/+34/+29 -
Tentacle Attack: 14 (Str) + 15 (BAB) + 5 (Offensive Precognition) - 5 (Multiattack) = +29 x4 -
Primary Damage: 2d6 (Greatsword) + 4d6+5 (Magic) + 21 (Str) -
Tentacle Damage: 2d8 (Base) + 7 (Str) = 16 on average -
Tactics: Round 1, activate both powers. Round 2 get close with Hustle, full attack. Round 3, repeat. -
Damage comes out to 127.5 over one round. We then double it, since we'll do the same next round, and then then divide by three since it's over 3 rounds, for a total of 85 DPR
- Dude, seriously, learn to do basic math before making these wild claims. I knew that this would be the result beforehand, and it was a waste of energy even considering your dumb points when they make sense to no one but yourself.
- Also, you're the one being hypocritical. Oh, a single feat creates new options that both classes can benefit from, should the player want to go that route? No, it's obviously less (no, more) powerful to just take all their abilities and mash them up. Stop throwing stones in glass houses and take a look at your own self for once. My problem is the ability score overinflation that goes into the whole saiyan thing. They should have done it a better way than, "hurr durr, look at me, see how big my numbers are?" but they didn't which is why I dislike it. +5 to AC has a huge impact on the RNG. +5 to attack much the base, especially when paired with few resources wasted, and the possibility of multiclassing and getting even more from somewhere else. But that's a different topic. I think I've shown quite handily that your math doesn't stack up to par, and for the most part, you don't really know what you're doing. Go read the system, and understand how it works. Or is all your content made before having the slightest idea of how a system works?
- One last note; I used no class features of the psychic warrior beyond their powers. If I had actually made use of some of the feats they're supposed to receive as class abilities (or had even multiclassed, or prestige classed at any point), the gap would have been much wider. --Ghostwheel (talk) 18:07, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
- You forgot in your damage calculations chance to fail against AC (ECL*1.5+10) and crit. More importantly, you forgot about quickening powers; this reduces max damage in a round, but also reduces rounds needed to prep (and increases DPR overall). You could surge the quickened power to compensate the reduced power points which could normally be spent. Additionally, a player taking this feat would likely be melee focused, thus would be using multiple weapons to fully optimize the feat.
- Also, they can set up their psychic strike in a previous round (as a move action, or swift action when surging). (So long as they do not use it in the previous round.) This further helps them if their buffed attack does not work. For they can still hit with the strike.--Franken Kesey 18:37, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
- Sidenote, I have even been missing adding to calculations chances to enervate. This feat has the potential to add 6 surge levels, but also has a 30% chance to enervate. This is a higher chance than it has for a critical attack and should be added (will be adding to my own calculations as well).--Franken Kesey 20:43, 6 May 2019 (MDT)
- Did you not see my calculations, or do you not understand the system? You can only quicken (a swift action) one power each round. In my example, the wilder spent 6 extra points to manifest Offensive Prescience as a swift action, and the psychic warrior did the same for Offensive Precognition. The psychic warrior also has better powers, meaning that if they didn't Hustle, they could use them to boost themselves even further, while the wilder doesn't have much to do except unless they want to spend XP to manifest a buff. The use of these swift actions also mean that the wilder can't psychic strike the same turn they manifest a swift or quickened power.
- Furthermore, attacks are calculated against an AC of 40. In addition, taking crit into account does the same thing across the board, so there's no point in calculating it, and even if I did, it would favor the Psychic Warrior since they could use a falchion instead of a greatsword or whatever.
- Lastly, against vermin, undead, oozes, or any other creatures immune to mind-affecting effects, the euphoric soul's damage drops by a ton, which I didn't add either. I did many things in favor of the euphoric blade... and they still ended up behind. --Ghostwheel (talk) 07:22, 7 May 2019 (MDT)
- You keep missing the fact that you can do Offensive Precognition as a standard action, then Offensive Prescience as a swift (when quickened) in the same round. Which changes prep rounds to just 1, and divides total by 2 (instead of 3). Crit calculations benefit higher damage dealers and higher attacks. Especially, when using weapons with 19-20 threat ranges (or keen which optimizes it even more). 10-20% chance is significant enough to make a sizeable difference in scores. Rechecked your calculations, you still have not included either. The move action for psychic strike can be done during the attack round (or use a swift action during the attack action to quicken one of your powers; either way only 1 prep round).
- Yes this can be negated by mindless creatures. However, this does not require flanking (like a rogue), and can still hit creatures immune to critical hits and precise damage. Thus it is far more powerful than sneak attack. The quantity of creatures immune are significantly reduced.
- You still have not been able to excuses the +44 damage and +7 attack that this feat gives at 20th level. That is equivalent to a +7 flaming-frost-shock-vicious-collision-acid blast shortsword, which is +19 total and costs +7,220,320 gp. This is well outside what even a 20th level player can afford. Total damage and attack output form a singular feat is the chief problem with this article.--Franken Kesey 10:10, 8 May 2019 (MDT)
- Except it not coming from a single feat, it coming from a class level investment + feat. Not only that it is perfectly within the realm of what feats grant, such as Daring Outlaw. The comparison also isn't correct at all, a 20th level Soulknife's soulblade is only a +9 weapon, which is 162K, which could just be brought. Like you even lose +1 BAB from multiclassing between two moderate so that +1 to Surging Euphoria when using psychic Strike just make up for that. The Psychic Strike is real nice, so are the bonuses. But remember, you lose 93 power points, 2 powers and the ability to manifest the extremely powerful 9th level power.
- Please, stop using that +7 flaming-frost-shock-vicious-collision-acid blast shortsword nonsense. You can't compare every bonus you get to a +1 on a weapon and then use epic pricing nonsense. By that Logic taking levels in a Full BAB class with a +5 Vorpal Sword make it a +10 Speed Vorpal Sword worth 57,800,000 GP. It just sound silly and reactionary. --Leziad (talk) 14:47, 8 May 2019 (MDT)
- @Kesey, you really don't read, do you? I did use offensive prescience as a swift action for both classes. You don't need Quicken Power for it. It's baked into the power as an option. The reason I did 3 rounds instead of 2 is because of the chance of enervation. Also, you don't seem to understand math. A +10% damage (which is basically what a crit range of 19-20/x2 is) works the same across the board, except for additional damage from things like sneak attack, weapon enhancements and so on. And I don't need to "excuse" the damage--it doesn't add that much, even taken to level 20. Like Lez said, you can equivocate +X to attack as a flat bonus when you lose BAB for it, and so on. This is just... dumb. --Ghostwheel (talk) 16:56, 8 May 2019 (MDT)
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@Ghost, as written this gives both the +5 mindblade, +5 worth of enchantments, +4d8 psychic strike, +2 euphoria. Using mostly psionic enchantments this adds 44 damage and 7 to attack rolls. (If using magical enchantments it deals slightly more.) To make an equal amount of damage and attack requires the above +19 weapon (which also deals 44 damage and has a 7 attack). Yes the 9th level power loss is a drawback. But the +19 blade for free, something which costs +7,220,320 gp, more than compensates for it. Advise removing the +5 worth of enchantments which would reduce damage by 14.5, making it less broken.--Franken Kesey 10:02, 9 May 2019 (MDT)
- Which are a very small increase to a wilder's power in H-level games thus making your rating flawed ("too much power" is only relevant to the balance range at which material is set at). Thus, making your argument entirely inconsequential. And also, your still using a false analogy, Unless you're telling me that a fighter with Greater Weapon Focus is basically equivalent to most of a +2 enhancement bonus to their weapon that stacks with their normal weapon, putting their weapon into the millions of gold range when paired with a +5 weapon, thus granting them millions of "free" gold and thus it should be a VH feat? Of course not. That's silly, and so is your argument, as well as not having a basis in logic since its assertion rests on a logical fallacy. --Ghostwheel (talk) 10:26, 9 May 2019 (MDT)
- Daring Outlaw give FULL sneak attack progression as a Rogue and is easier to get into. It has a higher damage return than that feat. In fact since you can take it as a full swashbuckler with shenanigan it also give +5 BAB, which is an additional attack. Daring Outlaw was written by WotC. This is perfectly in-line with existing multiclass feat. --Leziad (talk) 10:50, 9 May 2019 (MDT)
- That is a false statement on your part, Greater Weapon focus only impacts attack, not damage. To get just the +2 attack and damage boost of euphoria from this (which is a tiny fraction of this feat) would require weapon focus, greater weapon focus, and weapon specialization. Three feats.--Franken Kesey 10:55, 9 May 2019 (MDT)
- Yeeeeaaaaaah, so what you're saying is that this feat line gives you a weapon that costs a few million gold more and is VH, right? Since it's giving you all that gold, on top of having a full BAB as a fighter, while this feat might give you semi-equivalent attack bonus, if you decided not to invest too much in your manifesting? That's... kind of a dumb argument. --Ghostwheel (talk) 11:04, 9 May 2019 (MDT)
