Talk:Marshal (3.5e Class)

SGT

A potentially balanced class that doesn't pass the SGT on its own? Blasphemy! heh --Ghostwheel 06:50, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

I did one SGT already today... soon as I can get caught up on work I'll see if this one is as blasphemous as you suggest ;-) - TarkisFlux 01:39, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

I'll look forward to it :-)

Just with the lack of (many) class abilities that buff himself up (there are a few, but primarily his abilities target ally (other than self)) and the medium BAB and starting medium armor and medium HD, I don't see him standing on his own against many encounters that aren't pure social skill checks. --Ghostwheel 07:37, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah.... so... about that SGT...

You're right, this class doesn't pull it, because it doesn't do anything to itself. I think you could test it in a modified way using a stock barbarian (I'd use a stock fighter but don't want to get into feat arguments) against the SGT and seeing how much assistance the Marshall was able to give it, but I'm still thinking that one over.

I think that would be a better idea, simply because that way you can see what it can do in-combat. --Ghostwheel 21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

I'll say this for it though, it's the most interesting and tactical take on a buffer I've seen. You can't just auto-buff with it, which is really nice, but it seems to be missing a couple of things. So while I ponder how to even SGT it, here's some other stuff that stood out.

Stand Your Ground:If you start with an 18 chr, you're going to be providing 3 temporary hit points for 1 round to one guy at the cost of a swift action and some battle order points that you can't do anything else with. Which is ok, because I don't have anything else to do with those points, but when I hit 2nd and I get to choose between using that point for 4 temp hp or 1 extra attack at +4 for my big weapon, power attacking thug friend, I'm going to give up my move and let him murder things. And I'm going to save all of my points for that because the temp hp are so small and temporary and the bonus from the guy dropping someone is so much bigger. I don't think it would be out of place, considering the duration, to just go with the x4 from the start. At level 1 that's all of 12hp, which is a mediocre hit with a greatsword, and not really the sort of thing I'd be worried about potentially negating with a swift action and limited combat resources. At level 2 when it's 16hp, I'd strongly weigh whether I wanted to save a guy with that point or drop a guy by using it on the thug, and I think that's about right.

Try this in an actual game--right now I'm playing a level 5 Marshal with 21 Cha, and it's actually quite a lifesaver. Yes, the ability does fall at around levels 3-4, but picks back up at level 5. At the moment, I can grant allies 14 temporary HP--enough to stop them from taking enough damage to keep them up much of the time. Were it at x4, instead I'd be giving them 28 HP each--a little too much, at this level. And the game's not balanced at all at level 1 anyway. I prefer to look at balance starting more at around level 5ish personally. That make a bit more sense? --Ghostwheel 21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

I actually think it falls from levels 1-4, and isn't worth using in place of other actions in those levels at all... to the point that you might as well not even give it until level 5 IMO. 14 at 5 is fine, though I don't actually care about 28 given some of the focus firing that can happen and the limited duration that means if you don't get hit / targeted that round the action is completely wasted. Still, if you're not comfortable with just x4ing it all, moving it up to x2 for levels 1-4 would still make me at least consider using it in some situations. - TarkisFlux 22:44, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Guided Attack: I like the idea, but I think it could benefit from moving up the progression, or just eliminating the charge at 11 and replacing it with a full-round action, which could be charging, full-attacking, or even spell-casting.

Eh, spellcasters are already powerful enough as it is without getting extra actions. The charging is great for the chargers out there who deal incredible damage--this is more like a Snake's Swiftness spell than anything else, and I don't really see a need (or that it'd change the balance that much) to move it up. How would this change the class's power overall? I don't see that big of a difference... --Ghostwheel 21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

In a rogue level game where they aren't cheesing themselves out an extra spell isn't that much different from an extra full-action for anybody else. The only difference in power for the class overall is that it let's rogues TWF again in a round below 20 at the same time as it lets the ubercharger charge (and potentially allow someone else to flee like a ninny, cutting off an escapee, but that's less awesome). It's less a boost for the class, and more a balancing of the ability for the non-chargers out there. - TarkisFlux 22:44, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Step As One: Feels like not enough for as late as you get it. I keep comparing it to Mass Snake's Swiftness (2nd level druid, 3rd wiz that lets all allies in medium range take an immediate attack, which would probably be fine as a Strike As One ability at a lower level if you wanted to appropriate it). It's a nice ability, just not really great at level 14.

Like "Feather Yon Foe", it's mostly a flavorful ability meant to give the players another option without costing too much. It's there so that combat doesn't get boring, but not really a powerup. Guided Attack is more of the Snake's Swiftness ability. --Ghostwheel 21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the SS reference in the other ability is fairly obvious, I just wanted to suggest a mass version of it since the class seemed ready for it. And even if it is a flavorful ability, it could be a worthwhile flavorful ability at a lower level instead of strictly a flavor ability at this one. - TarkisFlux 22:44, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Otherwise, it's effects are all morale bonuses (so it competes with the bard and half of the cleric spells) for bonuses, but is missing any healing except for it's % and temporary effects as well as any stat buffs, and so can't actually replace the regular buffers out of combat. You could get around it by giving them a power such that they were treated as having the cure and buff spells on their class list (and could thus use wands for out of combat prep like everyone else does) if you wanted to, and it saves you from giving them spellcasting or other weirdness.

I usually get Healing Belts with all my characters anyway--multiple ones, if needed. That said, try playing it in a 5th-or-so level game with other rogue power level characters and see how it works there :-) --Ghostwheel 21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough on the healing belts, which I also carry lots and lots of. When I figure out how to fairly SGT it I'll give it the 5/10/15. I don't think 5th level is a particularly hard SGT to pass on any balance level, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was a substantial boost at that point.