Talk:Vortex Blade Shield Stance (3.5e Maneuver)

SWEET BABY BUDDHA IN A MANGER ON THE MOON WITH A SIDE OF 666 KILL CHOP DELUXE

Fucking fucker fuck, bro. Just...take a +1 dagger and cleave an actual fucking cannonball in half. No charge, just an attack roll. This is bordering on absolutely not okay, but it's so badass that I'll give it a pass. -SecondDeath777 01:51, 17 September 2017

Edit: As a suggested balancing patch, maybe require opposed attack rolls against projectiles from enemies one level below yours or higher. Then it's okay again.

Actually, I don't think it's very powerful. Siege weapons are rare, and this only affects ranged attacks. Someone can still walk up and punch you into the dirt, area effects will still reduce you to a quivering pile of ash/goo/whatever, and it doesn't affect non-projectile spells like Hold Person, which would be a win if you failed the save due to the fact that paralyzing you would prevent you from deflecting those projectiles in the first place. So yeah if you're fighting hundreds of archers, yeah this stance lets you just say "No", but all it takes is one big ugly beefcake getting right up in you face to ruin your day and make you wanna change stances to something more useful in a melee situation. Plus... It's not exactly overwhelming for a level 5 stance. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 05:36, 17 September 2017 (MDT)

Oh, siege weapons look really badass to deflect, but there's rolls involved, so all is well. But on builds I make where you can throw stances around as immediate actions, pull immediate actions out of your Dex bonus, and even be in several stances at once, this is effectively "passive immunity to projectiles" against stuff without rolls. I say keep the one no-roll auto-deflect that standard Deflect Arrows provides, but your DM could have a nasty ambush planned with a unique and interesting way out, and unbeknownst to them, you whip out Banana Jesus Mode and whip the poor suckers' bullets all over the walls. Which is all good and funny if they're pissant Lv 1s, but this lets you, or even your DM to say no to the gods of the gun and bow. You could pull this on your DM, and next time you go for an Arcane Archer or Gunslinger build, the BBEG just has this chilling on his stance list. Deny the little bitches opposed attack rolls, but denying projectile based classes of equivalent level and talent any combat options against you is just cruel. Do it once in a turn to anyone, no matter how talented, without an opposed roll, you're alright. Do it several times in a turn, you're a bit of a dick. Do it every single time an Epic Gunslinger 20 levels higher than you tries a single thing against you whatsoever, you're officially "that guy." You know the one. So just offer some people a chance. That's all I ask. -SecondDeath777 14:10, 17 September 2017

Edit: Don't get me wrong, this is what having a varied party is for, but punching through immunities and wot is not rare behavior for high level players, and this isn't immunity by name. If letting a cannonball get a fair shot in is a good idea, so is letting that one guy's super crackhouse overdrive bullet that's stronger than that cannonball. It's just logical to me that you have to earn deflections above your paygrade, and based on the fact you have to earn rays and siege weapons, Eiji thought so too.

I agree about earning rays and siege weapons, but I disagree on the other part. If a DM doesn't know you have that stance, then either you've purposefully hidden that information and are probably about to be kicked from the group after a gruesome and sudden character permadeath, or they forgot to check your sheet. If they know you have the stance and then build such an encounter anyway, they're either not trying to challenge you, but the other parry members instead, OR they just literally overlooked the stance that lets you say "No" to basically any ranged attack.

That said, within the first few rounds of combat, any intelligent foe is going to stop shooting at the guy who keeps deflecting all the arrows/bullets and focus their fire on the ones that can't. Plus, if the DM has any sense, any archer character is going to have at least a shortsword (Common backup weapon) and/or dagger (Since not only is it a weapon, but in medieval times, it was also used in place of the fork + knife at dinner).

If you think this entirely too powerful, consider adding these changes to it in your campaign: Passively, they can deflect one normal projectile per round with no roll, or they can deflect rays and siege weapons with a roll if they have a magic weapon, but at a -5 on the roll. When they fight defensively, they can deflect a number of normal projectiles equal to (Since this is Thousand Daggers) their Dexterity modifier, and the penalty to deflect siege and magical projectiles drops to -2. Only if they take the full defense action, thus foregoing any offensive actions they might've attempted, can they gain the full benefit as it is listed now.

That is what I would do in the event that I considered this too powerful, which I don't. I consider it perfectly on-par for a 5th-level High-balance stance. Anyway. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 20:08, 17 September 2017 (MDT)

I'll be perfectly honest, it's mostly a logical issue disguised as a balance issue. I think a projectile delivered by a ranged weapons master belted out at Mach 5 should have the precision and planning to penetrate the guard of a mid-tier samurai. I don't think the bow/gunman should be garunteed a hit, and I don't think the swordsman should be garunteed a deflection. If you've seen JoJo's Bizzare Adventure, consider Jotaro's fight against Dio, particularly the part where Dio threw knives in frozen time. Jotaro deflected a high concentration of projectiles, but was eventually overwhelmed. And seeing as about every knife hit a vital area, I think Dio was planning around Jotaro's deflection pattern. I am a firm believer that if you're good enough at a thing, you can overcome countermeasures to said thing. For a couple examples:

Power Word Kill. Tell somebody to die hard enough, and they will. Words are often seen as harmless, but the talented, ESPECIALLY Truespeakers, can forge a tactical onslaught out of only spoken paragraphs, overcoming the countermeasure of just "ignoring what they say."

Maximum Rampage. Walls are designed to keep people out of an area, but if you run and leap hard enough, no barrier to your movement is safe. Countermeasures people think unstoppable by mere human muscles, shattered to dust by an underestimated foe.

Epic Spells. The Anti-Magic field, seen by some as an all-swallowing arcane void, shutting down acts of god, can be ripped apart by sovereign magic from a caster who makes even the gods tremble.

Now, it goes both ways, too. You can achieve knowledge that transcends words of power, build a tougher wall, or create an Epic Counterspell. Passive, automatic immunity irks me for one simple reason: There is no word I hate more than "impossible." Whether you're the guy with the gun, or the guy with the sword, one telling the other their way is ineffective is bullshit, especially in fiction. Toss around Johnny Nobody's arrows all you want, but when Silas Greaves comes to your doorstep and says "Draw.", it leaves a bad taste in my mouth if you don't have to bring your A-game. I hope I've cleared up my stance(no pun intended). I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to deflect bullets, hell no. In fact, the idea epitomizes everything I've been claiming. I'm saying that if you're telling me there's no marksman in the multiverse with the skill to put one where Hoshi wasn't expecting it, I'll tell you you're out of your damned mind. -SecondDeath777 23:52, 17 September 2017