Talk:Monk, Retooled (3.5 Class)

In your opinion, is it needlessly complex or just has a harsh learning curve?

Alright, so before you guys mention that this class is just far too complicated and start with the dislikes, bear with me with this one.

A big peeve of mine with most Monk fixes is that they ALL feel like if you were building a class. Aside from adding Psionics (which could make for a nice class, and I do heartily endorse Psionic Monk fixes) or maneuvers (which just hammers the idea that Swordsage is better), most fixes I see just timidly add to the class without really focusing on its main problems. I attempted that early on, and I did a few things to minimize that (Touching the Ripples, Walk the River and the Clouds, Art of Deadly Wind and Deadly Weapons were good examples), but I still felt that it was more of a build than a class, and I began to loathe my own creation. Thus, after watching (and playing) a bit of DDO, I decided to incorporate some of its principles (the Elemental ways, the Way Between the Ways being a rehash of their enhancements, and the Philosophies) and retool them a bit to have their own flavor. I am completely satisfied with the result, but even I found it's a HUGE piece of work and potentially, brutally complex to work with.

On one hand, the idea was to allow several mechanical builds to exist, and I believe I've overshot that goal a hundred times. The breadth of abilities is astonishing, particularly after 10th level where you can unlock a second Elemental way and choose another martial style if you want. Fluff-wise, it's hard to justify various visions of what a Monk should be (in comparison to a Fighter), but the divide between the Strength-focused way of Fire (Might makes Right!), the Dexterity-based way of Air (the Wind cannot be stopped!), the Constitution focus of Earth (unyielding like the Stone!) and the Wisdom basis of Water (gentle as a drop, fierce as the ocean enraged!), the peaceful ways of Harmonious Balance, the war-like discipline of Ineffable Dominion (yield and be spared; defy us and die!) or the balanced goal of the Riddle of Equilibrium should make for a variety of monasteries with wildly differing tendencies, not to mention how the Ways of the Beasts allow for a scout, a scholar or even a master diplomatt.

On the other hand, as MisterSinister pointed out on the Project Heretica Paladin talk discussion, the idea is that someone can see the class, make a nice build, and kick ass (not exactly in that way, but the message is similar). This class has the possibilities to do so, but it's not easy to understand in the first place, and might cause people to repel its use on boards everywhere.

IMO, I can't sacrifice much of the complexity of the class for a simplified version that won't do justice to the Monk problem. However, if there's a way to simplify things, I will be grateful for it. Ideally, the Wiki format should make everything simple to understand, but if you feel it IS still quite complex, don't hesitate to tell (of course, after reading this and hearing my point of view).

On another topic: while I gauged it somewhere around Rogue level, the set of abilities it has make it borderline Wizard level (borderline as you can't do Wishes, Miracles, Gates for free, and change your composition every single day to face every challenge with little effort; still, it can solve a lot of obstacles). You're free to tell me if you agree with the idea or not. Certainly it's NOT Fighter-level, at least how I see it. T.G. Oskar 06:07, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's too much of a wall of text for me to read it right now, but I can tell you that bullet points help a bit sometimes, as could spoilers, possibly.

I'm also a little confused about the focus of this class. Are Monks supposed to be characters who combine the powers of the elements, alignments, animals, and wuxia into one overloaded mass? SRD Monks seemed to be going for just subtle wuxia and a touch of alignment; psionic and martial monks go for wuxia through the use of established power sources.

When you say "a monk that follows the Path of the Riddle of Equilibrium follows an inevitable axiom of the universe; good and evil cannot exist within each other" do you mean "must" instead of "cannot"? --Foxwarrior 06:49, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and Perfect Self: Path of Harmonious Balance is almost completely obsoleted by Wholeness of Body, just 18 levels earlier. Also, DR 5/Adamantine is not going to be on the same level of power as any +5 bonus to a non-skill d20 roll.

It's also strange to give water walk and air walk at the same time, since you can just air walk an inch above the water. --Foxwarrior 06:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

IMO, some of the focus of martial maneuvers comes from wuxia. Psionics and martial maneuvers work in a different method.
Still, it's pretty close to what you mentioned: the combination of the essence of the elements, philosophies (not necessarily alignments, as peace is not inherently a Good thing and even Good people wage war or seek to dominate above others) and the beasts through wuxia (or ki, if you prefer). I like to use ki as a power source as I found it a clever way to handle per-day abilities, but the way the Ninja from Comp. Adventurer handled it left a lot to be desired.
As for the Riddle of Equilibrium, it's a mix-up; indeed, it should be "must exist within" or "cannot exist without".
Wholeness of Body can either be used as a burst or strained through method of healing, so it can coexist with fast healing; I do agree its not spectacular compared to, say, Path of Ineffable Dominion (essentially a one-hit kill). The actual counterpart on DDO is a ki based healing ability, but I wasn't sure if it would be fair or fine.
As for Water Walk and Air Walk: certainly there are slight advantages to having Water Walk, as any strong wind (or stronger) can halt the Monk if using Air Walk (barring those who follow the way of Air), whereas it can walk fine through Water Walk. It's for purposes of completion.
Finally: adding bullets totally passed over me. Thanks for pointing that out (no pun intended) - T.G. Oskar 07:08, 12 June 2012 (UTC)