Talk:Jumper (3.5e Class)

RatingsEdit

A great class, keeping its damage high while being the epitome of a mobile striker. This one gets my thumbs up. --Ghostwheel 07:03, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Casper, when you get around to it can you officialize this? -- Jota 21:39, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Bah. Bah, I say. --Ghostwheel 22:11, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

	Ghostwheel likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	A great class, keeping its damage high while being the epitome of a mobile striker. This one gets my thumbs up.

Jota likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.

While admittedly an adaptation, which can be a bit boring, this one is quite good. Its power level is well-balanced for the intended balance point (I like the nimble strike attack bonus [denying Dexterity] compensating for the medium BAB and keeping Jump at level two where dips are less of a concern), but there are just one or two things I would like to see added or changed. First, there are a few dead levels, which is just boring. Second, which ties in with the just mentioned dead levels, there aren't many new additions that keep the class exciting at later levels. Quick Step and Muscle Memory are nice, but two intriguing abilities like these is just a bit too sparse for me, as the class starts to trend toward generic as early as level three. Any new additions wouldn't have to and probably shouldn't boost the fundamental power of the class, but I would welcome alterations that give the Jumper some new toys (and/or re-distribute the pre-existing ones as well) so that working toward the capstone is its own reward.

Ganteka Future dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

Good class. It feels like a base class, in that, I could see this being in a supplemental book. However, some of the wording is a bit awkward in places. It doesn't inhibit understanding, it's just awkward. That said, I could see a creative player making good use of this class, or even adding it to a multi-classed character build. As Jota mentioned, the dead levels are kinda lame (level 17 doesn't get anything but a HD and skill points, a notable design error). That just makes me curious more than anything. One last point of note: How is the encounter an encounter? Sure, it's an NPC with a personal history, but it isn't quite a combat scenario. I liked this a lot less reading through it again. The awkward wording really bothered me. The Extraordinary property of Jump also bothered me from a standpoint of trying to run a game with this ability present and having proper DM counters (within the given balance range of the class). Some abilities don't cut the mustard at the level they are given (like Needle Charge, whoop-dee-doo, Dex modifier to damage on a charge). Plus, dead levels. It's not a terrible class, but players and DMs would have to work out a lot of stuff before playing to make sure everything was clarified.

Blocked Rating	Sam Kay likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	Block Reason: This is a legacy rating from before our current ratings scale. While the reasons should be valid, it is not counted in the ratings on the article page because of the inaccurate scale.I like it; some interesting abilities, and it should play quite well. Though the dead level at 17 is "kinda lame," the others aren't too bad (+10 ft jump is quite nice). Definitely a good class.

	DanielDraco dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	It's in desperate need of cleanup, as noted below. The class may or may not be good, but the article certainly isn't.

Possible New Ability IdeaEdit

That Level 17 bugs me. So, I was thinking earlier, and like, BAM!, idea. So, I'm gonna type it out here as a half-assed attempt to get my point across:

Immediate Fallback Jump (Ex): You like, can take an immediate action to Jump 10 feet, but totally lose your Dex bonus to AC until the end of your next turn, n'stuff.

It's probably a pretty cheap ability (as if you were attacked, you could just be like, "oh, immediate jump 10 feet sucka!" and thus dominate in one-on-one battles -or- if the wizard was all "get out of the damn cone of effect!" you could jump out of there lickety split). Any thoughts about this, anyone? --Ganteka Future 03:42, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Quick thoughts, not favoring or condemning the ability, just observations:

First, that would be reusing something that Rith has already used, although that's not to say there's anything fundamentally wrong with it in that regard.

Second, at 10 feet there will still be things that can reach you even after the jump, so it isn't that powerful.

Third, if the immediate action has to count as part of your next round (assuming you Jumped in your previous round), then you lose the ability to use Jump as an offensive weapon in the next round when it actually is your turn.

Basically as long as the distance is relatively small I'm not convinced it is that cheap, but I'm tired and sick and I'm sure I've probably missed an angle of exploitation or two. -- Jota 06:12, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Well, first off, awesome enthusiasm, that put a big smile on my face, I have to admit, I liked it. Though, looking at what you got there, this ability is kind of, fragile, for level 17, since, as Jota pointed out, 10 feet isn't much, especially at that level, and then you find yourself unable to jump the next round, and that you're suddenly a more easy target to hit (though, that part is prevented with Unnatural Dodge, but that's a moot point). So, yeah, not perfect, but, it has an interesting idea behind it, I mean, I've used the idea before, after all. Having said that, I've been doing some brainstorming of my own, and I think I might have an ability that would be good for this instance:

Liquid Motion (Ex): You may move through occupied spaces as though they were unoccupied, etc. etc. lots and lots of answers to questions like "well, can I end my turn in a space occupied by someone else?" :P

I've got a couple of others in my head, but they're unformed currently. Any comments on this? → Rith ^(talk) 19:36, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Well, yeah, this leaves me with some questions on that one, Rith. First off, does that mean like, any space, friend or foe? So like, as a Jumper, I could run through a bevy of devils without problem to get to the back of them and attack an orb on a pillar or whatever (so, it ends up being like a pseudo-jump of sorts). What about stuff like Gelatinous Cubes?

As for the "Immediate Fallback Jump", where do you use this idea at? Also, I suppose I should explain the intent of the ability as well as why I thought it might warrant a drawback. Yeah, as an immediate action, it would take the place of his Jump for the next round, though, he would still be able to move and act as normal, and if his target were 10 feet away, he could still charge in and attack. The penalty to AC only comes into play from multiple opponents attacking him on one round. So, for example, a burley charger type leaps at the Jumper and attacks, the Jumper immediate action jumps back 10 feet. The burley charger just wasted his turn, doing nothing (that's a huge benefit to the Jumper there). Or heck, he could Jump behind the guy and then flank his opponent with a teammate when his teammate comes up in initiative. It's a great ability for tactics, but yeah, it's damn powerful. The drawback of AC penalty isn't probably necessary, but, any ability that's usable as an immediate action that basically is "no, I don't die or take damage, no need to roll a save and position myself on the battlefield" is probably better off to use than just getting additional movement in a round (especially when you want to be engaged in melee anyhow, and you could use your Quick Step to get your Nimble Strike in. Anyways, just some thoughts on that. Anyone else have any thoughts on that as well? --Ganteka Future 21:24, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Well, yeah, I still need to hammer out the specifics of it, not entirely sure if I'll even have the movement provoke AoO's or not, may need some further tweaking to make it fun. But as for the gelatinous cube thing, it could be flavored however, I mean, it's up to the player, really, I think I could whip up a quick justification for it, personally.

Oh, I'm using it in my WIP martial discipline, and on a couple of other classes. Though, seriously, taking a move action as an immediate/swift action is not an uncommon thing, I mean, there are even WotC things that use that sort of thing in them. A few magic items, a ToB manuever, it's all over the place freaking place. But, to respond to your question, I'd put a 10 foot teleport as an immediate action at about 9th level or so, since, before that, it'd be a bit unfair, but, after about 4 levels more, you're not gonna be able to escape with just 10 feet of movement, seeing as things after that point are either not going to be medium, are going to be casting spells that have ranges more than 500 feet, or, there are going to be a lot of them (Example: EL 14 encounter could potentially be 64 thoqqua's, 10 feet aint gonna help you there). I mean, yeah, the ability is good, but, in higher levels, the creaturs peel away, and you need more than 10 feet to make any difference. → Rith ^(talk) 22:40, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Sooo I just started looking at this problem with level 17... what's the plan here? I like Liquid Motion and Immediate Fallback Jump... can does both? --YouLostMe 06:18, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Non-muscle Muscle MemoryEdit

Fluff-wise, why should Muscle Memory work on non-physical skills? Shouldn't it work on just Str/Dex/Con skills? I'm not seeing how muscle memory could weave into, say, a charisma skill. Aelaris 20:56, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

TechnicalityEdit

Nimble Strike denies Dex "mod", rather than "bonus". Besides being a colloquial abbreviation that probably shouldn't be used in class features, it means that a character with a Dexterity penalty actually gains armor class. --DanielDraco 14:05, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

More phrasing issues:

• The phrasing about attacks in Nimble Strike should be made plural. As written, it can be read to refer to any single attack made after 20 feet of movement.
• There is another instance of saying "Dex mod" where it should be "Dexterity bonus" in Nimble Strike.
• The phrasing of the last sentence in Nimble Strike technically means that Nimble Strike can never be used with Jump, because it makes the movement considered to be a flat 10, not 10 plus actual movement.
• The phrasing in Jump is imprecise, and could be read to mean that a move action can be taken before and another move action can be taken after, with the total of the two needing to be no greater than his speed. Yes, your phrasing is pretty much exactly the same as Spring Attack's. No, Spring Attack's phrasing is not good. I'd put it more along the lines of "A jumper can take a swift action to use this ability in the middle of any normal movement, including charging and running."
• Someone out to pull some cheese might interpret bonus damage dice as separate rolls for the purposes of Needle Charge -- so if he has a weapon with the Frost enhancement and 1d6 each of Skirmish, Sneak Attack, and Sudden Strike, that's a potential 5 times he's adding his Dexterity bonus. "A jumper may add his Dexterity modifier to damage when he attacks at the end of a charge" is more airtight.
• Mercurial Charge's phrasing is simply unclear. Does "move back on himself" mean "re-enter a space he just left", "occupy a single space twice", "go in any two opposite directions" or something else?
• Regarding Unnatural Dodge, "instinct" bonuses do not appear anywhere else in the game, and thus you may as well just make it an untyped bonus or change it to the similar concept of an insight bonus.
• Besides the bonus type issue, the phrasing on Unnatural Dodge is...very, very, very strange. Why not "Any time the Jumper would be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he retains it instead. However, for all purposes other than attack rolls he is still considered to be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. Thus, for example, a Rogue of sufficient level could still deliver a Sneak Attack against an immobilized Jumper, but the Jumper's armor class would not be changed." Now, that said, it makes no sense for an immobilized Jumper. If anyone is immobile, there's no way their dodginess is going to help. I'd suggest making it so that it can't be used while immobile -- which pretty much narrows its use to only being against feints, but whatever.
• As written, Muscle Memory gives nearly no benefit. He could already take twenty on most checks. I think you mean that he can now take twenty on those checks even when distracted or under stress and with no increase to the time required.
• Greater Mercurial Charge has the same phrasing issue as Mercurial Charge.
• A lot of the abilities lack a Ex/Sp/Su designation, seemingly at random. Might want to add them on, unless there's a particular reason for those to be natural abilities.

As a final note...spelling and grammar. Fix the spelling and grammar. There's a good handful of mistakes scattered throughout. --DanielDraco 10:32, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Extraordinary TeleportEdit

I'm sorry, but...that just makes no sense whatsoever. Why is Jump extraordinary? --DanielDraco 10:22, 7 August 2011 (UTC)