Talk:Chicken Scratch (3.5e Spell)

As much as I'm loving the flavor of this spell, it has a few questions. which currently leave it an the unusable category (unless your wizard-dueling with ranged touch attacks).
This is a conjuration spell, which means the chickens are being actually summoned, can the target use the "attack of opportunity" to hit(kill/knock away?) the chicken as it moves into his range? Sense the chicken was actually summoned and is it's own monster be it airborne/launched or otherwise it's still "moving" into his space (conveniently at baseball height), plus the target will know it's coming after the 3rd round.

Failing to land the touch attack results in spell failure, Do the previously summoned chickens remain?
How long do the 15 chickens remain if the spell does/not fail?

How are chickens dealing 1d6 damage? the SRD:Owl and SRD:Hawk do d4 damage and are combat-intended animals still receiving -3/-2 damage because of their negative STR modifiers dealing 'maybe' 1-2dmg/attack.
Even if you homebrewed up an "chicken" it "should" be a non-combat version of the owl, a size category larger would give it the d6 but it's modifier would still be -2(including size modified STR).
Even +fiendish/celestial they wouldn't pull off the d6/hit.
Plus you have to roll for each attack of the X-chickens you summon per round because they're actually being summoned via conjuration spell (luckily they don't get more than 1 attack/round at that hp)...not likely to hit anything when your using spells at 7th level.
unless... You're (kitten)cannon-shooting the X of them out of your clothes each round(If they survive, do they have to run back to your clothes every round)! Snafusam (talk) 21:29, 20 May 2017 (MDT)

The chickens function like an evocation spell effect. You don't force your fireball to roll for its own attack, it just uses yours. The chickens remain post spell but they now use the statistics of any other similar bird (DM discretion, I'd use Raven) so they're pretty worthless. The d6 is to make the spell usable, and we'll say thats the magic making those chickens STRONG. I made it conjuration because it is summoning but the spell functions more like an Evocation. The chickens don't provoke AoOs because its a spell effect, not a creature moving into the space (they don't count as creatures until after the spell, when they're just a bunch of worthless fowl). No the chickens don't run back into your clothes every round, they just keep rushing past the enemy after hitting and turn around for another run. Hit a cucco a couple times in a legend of zelda game and you'll have a pretty good idea on why these deal 1d6. - Aeturo (talk) 00:37, 21 May 2017 (MDT)

You're... fudging the "magic does things" a bit much, a fireball is your attack it's not summoned, and ignoring the 3.5 cut-down/creation of spells which 'should' be avoided sense wiki is for everybody(the 2nd hardest part of making good content) the biggest reason this spell "can't" be left as-is, is because of it's current 100% effect. lets break this down and see if we can get it functional/playable..

Pop open the Player Handbook Pg.173 Conjuration spells have 3 sub-types which you can use for this. Creation(objects only, creatures are Epic level seed even for insects.) which "you should not use for this." Summoning (Which is what I was 'presuming' this would be) Pulls X-creature randomly from the plane(the actual creature) for the duration of the spell "before being returned". teleportation would pull the chickens one-way at random (unless specified by the caster) from the plane(so this technically 'could' be the one your trying for).
However they are still their own creatures(requiring a char sheet/their own attacks after the initial chicken[kitten] cannon) after being summoned.
Each option would still be kill-able after being summoned preventing damage from the following round.

During the spell the chickens "can" be buffed through the same spell (explaining why it's level 7 for chickens) so "magic does things" can be applied to the damage AND even the attacks to hit if you use the magic user's "touch attack" for each one, however it would probably be better just to figure out the chickens themselves before that... the ravens damage is 1d2-5... if the chickens are "moving" in the enemies range(as their own creatures), they qualify as targets of the Atk/Op.

The spell itself hitting X-target with a surprise summoned chicken works(chicken cannon!) see the "launch bolt" and "launch item" spells, it would add the transmutation property to your spell to give reason to the movement of the chicken after it's been summoned(conjuration can make objects/creatures appear[evocation=energy], but can't move them afterwords). which can explain why the "initial" summon-attack of the chicken can't be hit.

Turning the spell/each chicken into an illusion is an option, but that would give the target a will save each round for each chicken's appearance, but would skip rolls for X-chicken after being hit with the illusion (till disbelieved) and removing the reflex saves. and turning it into a mind-altering spell.

if the current spell got a 100% effect (every chicken[currently un-kill-able] hits every round for the 15 rounds). Your looking at 120d6 (120-720dmg) total!!!. spread among 15 rounds?, plus distraction penalties?... from 1 level 7 spell! while capable of slinging other spells... each chicken would be tiny/small size fitting 2-3/5' square, meaning it could surround him/her causing flanking... and stolen food for a small village.

I never liked the Zelda games, so never played them enough to know... I had similar problems at one point with my own spells/content but got opinions without any direction "omg this is XXX!", believe Me, When it happens enough times without any direction(especially from the same people), the results become as You previously read on the other talk-page. Even if your willing/unwilling to try, not knowing where to 'start' and still being given those comments... Snafusam (talk) 23:39, 21 May 2017 (MDT)

You're reading waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too into this. The spell summons chickens yes, but they function as evocation spells. You can't kill the chicken because its a straight damage spell. It summons a chicken. The chicken is enhanced by magic, flying through the air and attacking, and then after the spell ends they're just a useless bird. Where did it come from, where did it go? Maybe we could ask Cotteneye Joe. Why is healing somebody evocation? Or conjuration is some editions? We summon the health from another plane? Also one, it's requiring the caster to use their action to use it again. So basically if you want that glorious high level damage you have to spend many turns using no other spell to build it up, when you could be slinging your 15d6 fireballs turn by turn instead. Also this is single target, not AoE. It's a high damage spell that takes time to build up, and yes over time it dealt a lot of damage but turn by turn but it caps at the fireball's AoE damage. The main attraction is using one spell slot to really mess with one guy. - Aeturo (talk) 01:01, 22 May 2017 (MDT)

... What you're saying makes no sense. With that statement my understanding of this spell falls backwards only to the flavor/intent of this spell.

An evocation spell which 'appears' like chickens "which aren't real until after hitting"? how/why does your "evocation" spell somehow *create* life(epic level), enhance it(understood, its magic... needs to have the abjuration or enhancement bonus described because chicken does not deal d6). The spell say's that the chickens CONTINUE to attack the target, if they're 'just a useless bird' why do they attack(d6, how are they passing my AC)? causing the distraction penalties... "if they are real" why can the target NOT kill the chickens to prevent the damage? are they "Phantom Illusion Buffed Chickens which are evocation power" somehow dealing physical dmg while being seen and not requiring will saves? does damage reduction need apply? if he drops a fireball on himself, does it effect the chickens!?

The fact that this is all being dealt on a single target, is understood(surprising that it's range is 'close' at level 7) very well. however in a close-range fight can the guy/girl NEXT to the target attack the chickens to save the target?... is there NO other way to stop the currently "immortal enhanced" chickens from attacking other than killing the caster?

Cottoneye Joe's answer ""creatures summoned by magic depend on the spells subcategory. most summoning spells pull a chosen creature randomly from somewhere on the plane(usually with an alignment or compulsion to aid the summoner). however because the spell usually returns the creature safely it doesn't matter much to the world or it's inhabitants."" The reason the conjuration method is relevant is your chickens 'should not remain' after the spells duration ends! also summoned creatures all have their own HP, when they die 2/3 summon spells send them back(no corpse)! the remaining option literally steals the chickens from X-place on the plane and once the spell is over(if they survive), what do you do with the chickens? Does Crazy Archmage Rob gotta get his Spell Void (3.5e Spell) and hunt you down you dirty chicken-thief!

Healing spells have been argued for quite a while as to which they should be because of the descriptions. evocation=energy manipulation by spell, Conjuration=summon holy power to heal, Abjuration= alter the body to regenerate faster. which is correct? all 3, but for each spell they NEED a definite answer for players "during play". so they bounce around depending on the dnd version. a 100% completely different conversation/topic.Snafusam (talk) 03:16, 22 May 2017 (MDT)

Oh for the love of Mystra. If it bugs you that much, stop arguing that he change his spell and just make your own variant. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 03:50, 22 May 2017 (MDT)

Christ you're getting way into the semantics of aspell that summons chickens. Don't like the typing because for some reason you have a compulsion to fix it? Well either don't use the spell or change the typing at you table. I'll add a clause that to concentrate on the spell you must use your action each turn because that was the original intent. - Aeturo (talk)

Level seven spell? Primarily deals damage and does at most -5 to stuff? Requires concentration? Heck, I would even place this at High instead of Very High. I don't see this as overpowered at all, even the opposite for its balance range. --Ghostwheel (talk) 14:06, 22 May 2017 (MDT)

@Aeturo - You shouldn't have to specify that. The duration already says Concentration, which means you gotta spend a Standard each round to maintain it. I suppose Snafusam went so cuckoo over the chickens themselves that he missed that detail? Dunno. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 16:07, 22 May 2017 (MDT)

Yeah that's what I thought. He apparently plays with a lot of variants. Over on Desolate, Lesser he said he plays with level 50 to 70 PCs so he might have forgotten RAW - Aeturo (talk) 19:42, 22 May 2017 (EST)

...Yeah, I saw some of the nonsense over there, and combined with this, I'd say my opinion of him is much-soured already. While 50-70 is cool and all, it doesn't apply to most games; Normally only to those games where the DM awards one level per session or something (And I've been a player in one of those kinds of game - Not pretty). I'd seen those three Desolate spells and they sorta inspired this and this, on which I, too, am getting snark (Not from Snafu, but still). Anyway. I see nothing wrong with this spell, and if he's got a problem with this one, he'll have a field day with Suddenly Train or Spontaneous Toaster, among others. It's a game with magic in it where people can randomly summon stuff out of thin air or turn a ball of sulfur and bat guano into a high-powered incendiary. Unless you're a rule lawyer, these spell look fun and don't need any changing whatsoever. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 18:03, 22 May 2017 (MDT)

It seems you're correct that i mistook the basic concentration definition. crippling my earlier statements(cleaned). is it possible to attack/kill the chickens lowering the damage?

I actually LOVED suddenly train and spontaneous toaster because they were "mechanically functional"!

the reason the campaign managed to reach those levels (after 9 years) was because they 'survived' those fights. there were a total of 2 variants used, to improve combat, however that is a different topic.Snafusam (talk) 18:44, 22 May 2017 (MDT)

(RESET INDENT) Ah! okay, that certainly explains that much. And those spells aren't mine; They simply came to mind as some of the more absurd spells on the wiki that were similar to this one.

I had actually assumed that at the end of the spell, the summoned chickens vanish again, just like other summoned creatures. Not to mention... It's Conjuration. They could be summoned from anywhere; Which means they could be Astral versions of chickens (Like Drizzt's Guenhwyvar, a panther, summoned by the Figurine Of Wondrous Power he possesses) or even energy-based mutants from an alien world. There are loads of possibilities, so there's little reason to try and put it in a finite box within a game whose limits are the breadth of the user's imagination. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 19:06, 22 May 2017 (MDT)

I'm going to be honest, I never thought about where the chickens go. If they remain I guess you could use them for food but not much else. Really, I don't care if they vanish or remain. Let's go with vanish then. I retract my previous statement from before on their staying Edit: No you can't kill the chickens but you could stab the caster and force them to make that concentration check that they might fail, or leave his line of sight so he can't use it again - Aeturo (talk) 19:17, 22 May 2017 (MDT)