Talk:Ur Polar Ray (3.5e Spell)

Not a True 8

Even with the lack of saving throw for the dex damage and speed reduction, this doesn't seem like a true level 8 spell. It's certainly better than the SRD polar ray, but that spell is 1st level. Level 8 has Mind Blank and Polymorph any Object. Combat removal like Maze and Irresistable Dance have no saves. This just doesn't seem up to par. Maybe a 6th? --Aarnott (talk) 18:49, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

First it marked as high, second making a polar ray 1st level is asking for disaster. You need to count metamagic in. --Leziad (talk) 19:43, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

I missed that it was marked as high. Whoops. Polar Ray definitely is a 1st level though. Compare to an acid flask/alchemist fire throwing rogue for damage output. --Aarnott (talk) 20:26, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Then it the best 1st level spell ever. How is that split ray twinned repeated empowered energy substituted polar ray (7th level with arcane thesis, and you have a metamagic rod of quicken so you fire two a round.)? That no longer near 1st level, ad I only took in account arcane thesis not the other metamagic reducers. That eight rays each dealing 15d6+45 energy damages per casting , sound like a joke? It not, it fucking terrifying. --Leziad (talk) 20:38, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Comparing damage output, optimized halfling hurler (scaled to 13th, using the bonus feat cheese) deal around 40d6 (140 average) a round if everything hit. The polar ray spammer fire eight rays, each dealing 15d6+45 (average 97,5); although 4 of those rays come next round. The sorcerer/wizard is blinking by his own abilities, so both have about the same chance to hit, the wizard only need to worry about energy immunity and the like (but can identify the monster as a free action and use his energy substitution to get around that) while the rogue need to resort to wands to get past the most meager defense. Assuming everything hit on both side, and that the wizard is not using say a maximize rod that 140+ vs 780 average. One of them require a full-round action to use, the other require a standard action. Yep, look like a 1st level spell to me.--Leziad (talk) 20:58, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

That's more a problem with Arcane Thesis than Polar Ray. Without thesis, you can muster a Split Ray (+2), Twinned (+4) polar ray, which will deal 60d6 damage. It may outpace the rogue, but I'm talking about VH level here. --Aarnott (talk) 21:20, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Also note that the example you are giving is not a 1st level spell, it's a 7th level spell. It remains competitive with forcecage, finger of death, banishment and the like. --Aarnott (talk) 21:24, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

It outcompete them, by far, if you have a spell that deal enough damage it essentially a touch attack you lose. You can reliably kill a cR 24 creature with that much damage and since it touch AND flatfooted (thanks blink) you will almost always hit. Beside at 10th level it outcompete all 1st level spell as well, you are giving up a 1st level spell to deal say 10d6 damage at 10th level, which isn't all that MUCH, but it pretty good use of a meager 1st level spell slot if you don't think a threat deserve a better spell slot (deal 1/3rd of the damage the rogue focused his entire build on). Seriously let stop this crap of putting powerful evocations at 1st and 2nd level, it doesn't work. --Leziad (talk) 21:38, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Thing is, 60d6 is not appropriated at 13th level no matter the level of play. Especially if you can do shit like splitting it between multiple targets. Forcecage is expensive to use (expensive component), finger of death is a [death] effect and offer a save, banishment only target a particular type, grant a save and the creature can always fuck you up later. With 60d6 no save, only RTA, you are just dead. Immunity to cold is rarer than immunity to death-effect or teleportation at CR 13th! Polar Ray as a 1st level not only provide a viable spell at 1st level, it literally scale up for the whole game and become an instant power house that put even many 9th level option to shame. Because of the existence of metamagic which is inherent for the system we need to keep spell levels in thigh check, this ain't psionic where metapsionic abuses are extremely hard to do. I am not defending pola ray as a legitimate spell of it level, it blow very very hard, it just impossible to make it good for it level without borking everything later on . --Leziad (talk) 21:45, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Polar ray maybe should be a 3rd level spell then. Really, metamagic does muddle things. On its own, I'd be fine with it being 1d6 per level in a 1st level slot. But 2d6 per level in a 3rd level slot is far too good. More metamagic just makes it worse. 2d6 per level in a 5th level slot does seem more reasonable. Split ray should really be +3 metamagic at least, which is part of the problem as well. --Aarnott (talk) 22:14, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that very high level play don't really justify absurd damage, when you design a spell you need to take in account the borked metamagic system that go with it. Polar Ray shouldn't be a 3rd level spell, it shouldn't be a 7th or a 8th. It should just be resigned to be useful. Like this spell, while I think this look more like 7th level, I could see it at 6th but it be very very good for it level. Also I disagree, scaling 2d6 no save RTA at 5th seem overdoing it, that 18d6 at 9th which is... I guess not too bad, but still possibly problematic. I say that if Eiji added a slow effect instead of movement speed reduction to this spell it would definitely feel 8th to me (slowed until thawned seem a little extreme though). --Leziad (talk) 22:30, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Slow without save would make it more like an 8th, yes. That's probably the best solution for this one. --Aarnott (talk) 22:57, 31 January 2014 (UTC)