Talk:Simplified Races (3.5e Variant Rule)

More Races

Any requests for specific races? --Ghostwheel 13:59, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

There are about a billion sub-races of elf. Start with those?--Tavis McCricket 19:37, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

I'll request the planar ones (aasimar, tiefling, genasi), but there's no rush on them. - TarkisFlux 00:42, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

As far as the sub-races, for the most I'll simply say to use the base elf. It fits most of them well enough. That said, I'll probably add the drow at some point (5+HD SR, I'm thinking as a passive ability). I'll also add the aasimar and tiefling soon, though I'm not sure if I should make the genasi a single race (and give different specific effects depending on the flavor) or a different entry for each one.

All the planetouched have been added. Anything else? --Ghostwheel 18:11, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Kobolds come to mind. Hobgoblins, bugbears, gnolls, yuan-ti*, xvarts, githyanki*, githzerai*, pixies, orcs, kuo-toa*, sahuagin, lizardfolk/trogdolytes (not sure I should be grouping those together). Dragonborn, perhaps, or their like. Bold denotes things I'd consider more as staples to the D&D world (excluding the product identity stuff). Merfolk and mongrelfolk are possibilities, I suppose. Not sure if shifters/weretouched/were-anything should or could be covered under this variant.

*Denotes product identity; not sure how that would affect a decision to rebuild them under this variant. -- Jota 19:21, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Attribute Bonuses

Is there any way to factor those in? Rather than the standard "+2/-2", what about +2 to one variable attribute? For instance, Elves get +2 to Dexterity OR Intelligence, Half-Orcs get +2 to Strength OR Constitution, Humans get +2 to any attribute, Dwarves get +2 to Constitution OR Wisdom, etc.--Tavis McCricket 19:37, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why you'd want to. Mental boosts are worth more than physical boosts, any sort of boost / penalty tends to diminish consideration of races for classes outside those that are benefited by their boosts, and the boosts are worth substantially more under a scaling cost point buy system. They just don't do anything particularly good and have several minor problems. - TarkisFlux 20:25, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Any reason apart from affecting the DCs of spells traditionally that mental boosts are worth more than physical boosts? And Tavis, any good counterarguments on why/how ability boosts would be be a good thing without necessarily shoehorning races into specific character classes? --Ghostwheel 22:30, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

That's the big one, though it's also that a +1 to save DC is just bigger than a +1 to AC or attack or HP because of how the systems scale. - TarkisFlux 22:58, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

@Tarkis- I dislike changing races because classes are imbalanced. I suggested a variable bonus to compliment class consideration, rather than harm it. This may adversely impact a point buy system, but should the method of character creation govern whether or not a class or race is balanced in gameplay? As it stands, the current change reflects a homogenizing of the races, which I dislike. Not to say that the current races are better or that these are bad, but the simplified races seem bland to me.

@Ghostwheel- By chosing (to a limited extent) where your bonus goes, it gives you more options. An elf that picks Dex vs Int has more options than one that gets Dex and loses Con. A player might actually play a Dwarf cleric or paladin (which alledgely exist already) if he got +2 Wis, rather than -2 Cha. As it stands, people will still likely pick the same races for the same rolls. Furthermore, some of the abilities (Elvish Precision, Powerful Build) already encourage people to play certain class/race combinations. Just saying.--Tavis McCricket 23:01, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

So why not just increase the point buy instead of letting all players have an extra +2 to put anywhere? Is there any real difference between the two, apart from allowing you to break the 18 cap at first level? (And should it even be allowed to be broken? Don't primarily only SAD classes break it, and they're usually much more powerful than other classes anyway?) And sure, some of the abilities nudge people towards a certain concept, but I don't think they completely decide it--you could easily play a half-orc wizard, and not be much worse than someone playing an grey elf one, while in the usual races virtually no one would ever play a half-orc wizard, or even a half-elf one if they could be a grey elf. So while there's some nudging, I don't think it's quite as restrictive and shoehorning as the "usual" race rules are. What do you think? --Ghostwheel 23:25, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Some points:

• "I dislike changing races because classes are imbalanced." I don't actually see why you'd want to ignore races just because classes were imbalanced. If anything, the imbalance of classes is a reason to modify races. If you can't effectively use a race in a powerful class and are instead stuck to the weaker classes because of racial abilities or lack thereof, then the race itself will be valued poorly in high power games. The imbalance of classes looks to be a reason to avoid building races into class straightjackets, and since the standard setup does that it appears to be a reason to change it.
• Point buy is intended to be balanced, and it is less so with no-cost modifiers that you put on top of your existing scores purchased with scaling costs. If costs were linear this wouldn't be an issue actually, but in the normal point buy system this gives you a variable number of bonus points.
• I don't see this as a homogenization, as they don't have a lot of shared abilities. It's probably a standardization, in that they all get the same number of the same types of things. And I'll give you that this page is bland because it's so consistent and rules dense, but also because it's lacking fluff text entirely. The mechanics themselves are fine, and if this was stuck at the bottom of a regular racial writeup that helped explain why they got the abilites they got I imagine it would be much less bland.

I didn't say the problems with attribute mods were big ones, just that they were there and they didn't add anything to the game. I don't know how a race getting +2 to physical stat or +2 to mental stat is anymore flavorful than the stuff that Ghost already has here. It seems like passive number shuffling that doesn't actually add any options to the race or impact their tactics in a fight, just what classes they're going to take.

If you want some numbers that different races get to add to different things, why not a variable skill bonus instead? +2 to 3 skills from some racial list or something? - TarkisFlux 23:30, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

@Tarkis- Like I said (or was trying to say), variable bonuses are a step towards freeing races from class restrictions, while allowing races to retain bonuses that set them apart. That being said, if Ghost elected to include them, I'd hope it would be in addition to what he already has down rather than replacing it. As for the "blandness" of the rules, I wasn't refering to lack of fluff but to the content of the rules themselves. A dwarf is always a dwarf, not once per encounter (part of the reason I would like attribute bonus included). As for variable skill bonuses, that's not a bad prize. I had thought of suggesting it, but was going to wait for this debate to simmer down before adding more to the pot.

Are your thoughts of race balance based purely on high power games? If so, we'll likely never reach an agreement, beacuse we don't have balance points for races, and we should. We're trying to force a static system onto a fluid framework.

@Ghostwheel- These rules certainly encourage more class/race diversity that the current ones, no arguement here. As for point buy, I actually don't use it. 4d6 rolled seven times, drop the lowest. That's just me though. If you're creating these rules specifically to be used with point buy, increasing it certainly isn't a bad idea, but the suggestion wasn't simply to make PCs more powerful (and thusly I can't say if I agree of disagree). I do, however, find it acceptable to allow someone to exceed a score of 18 at first level (by virtue of a racial modifier mind you).

Everything I'm trying to suggest is an addition to what Ghost has already laid out. I'm not suggesting he remove things, merely add them. My heart isn't really in a long drawn out debate like I entertain with Storm for that very reason. I like what is there already, I just want there to be more.--Tavis McCricket 00:09, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

We shouldn't have balance points for races, because they should all be roughly equal (within their LA / ECL bracket) to make them equally viable choices in a game. Racial bonuses do set them apart, but they diminish the ability of a race to be an equally viable choice in all classes, and thus in all game types. I don't think it's worth it for differentiation purposes, not where there's ability or whatever differentiation to take it's place. I'd actually be really happy with racial stat maximums though, and getting some differentiation in that way, but that's not on the table here and probably shouldn't be.

I guess we'll just disagree on the blandness of the rules though. I rather like them, though I think they're a bit austere. A dwarf in this is always a dwarf in this, and once per encounter he can call on that dwarfness to do stuff. If he wasn't a dwarf he wouldn't have access to it, and the access is what makes him dwarfish. The access is always there, even if the ability has been used. I wouldn't turn down an additional passive ability for each race though, just to increase individual feel a bit more. And they could maybe use some level based advancement, but it's not especially important to me. - TarkisFlux 00:40, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

As I said on the intro, you/the DM can add all the misc bits if you want to--though I'm not sure how often the elf immunity to ghoul paralysis comes up... And the current abilities of most of the races were hard enough to come up with--do you want to come up with one more passive one for every race? :-P --Ghostwheel 04:45, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

I was wondering if you had thought about incorporating these simplified race's abilities into the Original Race rebuilding? I think that would be fairly awesome to be able to pick some of these instead of something like Bonus Feat. Not sure how many slots each would be worth though.108.13.212.160 05:08, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Not particularly--I see them as two separate variants, and while one can use both I suppose, I feel as though the races would be a little too powerful if one did so. These days I prefer just using this one, since it makes people equal and leads to less optimization. --Ghostwheel

Drow Utility

So, I'm a drow. I create darkness in my square and the squares adjacent to me. I then move thirty feet away. Does the darkness effect move with me? Quilliard 20:38, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Negative. Stays where you created it. --Ghostwheel 22:32, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

A rarer piece of knowledge regarding drow: they have horrible flatulence. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 23:13, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Humans?

The races are supposed to be more-or-less balanced, but in a recent game I started running 4/5 players chose to become human. This leads me to think that humans are overpowered in this variant, which means that they need to be nerfed. Any thoughts on this matter? And how should they be nerfed? Two ideas that came to mind is to choose a feat at first level and to get it until the end of your next turn with a move action, and the other is getting a variable feat once per encounter and that it lasts for 3 rounds.

Thoughts? --Ghostwheel 03:02, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Everyone else has a limited combat shtick, so that's probably the right track. I have no idea how long fights last in your games, but 3 rounds of "this feat I really want right now" sounds on the long end of duration for something so customizable. It also sounds like something I'd take over most of your races 1/encounter fixed abilities. Maybe the ability to use 1 [fighter] or similar combat feat for 1 minute 1/day would work better, since they'd be trading flexibility for frequency and not be worried about running out of time once they activated it. - TarkisFlux 04:05, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Hrmm, what if it was for 1-2 rounds? Most combats take 4-8 (usually 6-8) rounds, but if even that sounds better than most others races' abilities I might tone it down further. And allowing fighter feats would still give characters a martial maneuver 1/encounter or the like. --Ghostwheel 04:55, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

I think that sounds better than any of the other racial combat things you have down. Those are situationaly useful. This is useful in any situation where my knowledge of feats (which has to be admittedly large) allows me to find one. I see this being used more than the other ones, and being more useful than them at the same time since it's customized to circumstances. Hence the 1/day suggestion.

You could also just give them a non-reselectable bonus feat at 1st and be done with it. It doesn't have the same limited thing as the others, but it just allows them to be slightly more combat powerful, in the same way that the options provided in the other races allow them to be slightly more powerful. I'm not sure if any of your players are using the reselect aspect though, so this might not actually resolve your issue. - TarkisFlux 05:54, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

I don't see them reselecting either, so that's not really the problem here. It's just that a permanent bonus feat seems to be stronger than any other race on the page :-/ --Ghostwheel 06:00, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

I think it's weaker actually (especially out the gate, less so as you level), but it's better if you need feats for a particular build, or just want to hit your build shtick sooner. So I don't think it's really a power issue, just a "standard operating procedure" issue. It's also easier to work into a build than a new, and possibly counter-synergistic, option, but that doesn't make it stronger than adding another option. Given what you seem to want, I think you need to just make it a specific ability. - TarkisFlux 17:33, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

So you think that humans are good as-is, and people only picked them because they're not used to the new rules? *headtilt* --Ghostwheel 01:00, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

That they're more used to "get an early feat for my build requirements" than "incorporate new encounter ability into strategy" is what I'm suggesting. It moves up your shtick acquisition by a couple of levels, which people seem to want. If you're looking for a particular build as soon as you can get it, the feat is going to look more appealing even though it's very likely less powerful. - TarkisFlux 16:44, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

I am kind of confused about the human's bonus feat. In the beginning of the page it says "Humans get only a single bonus feat at level one, rather than two." First off, regular SRD humans only get one bonus feat at level one, unless you consider the automatic level one feat that all races get to be a bonus feat, which then it makes slightly more sense (the automatic level one feat can be reassigned at the beginning of the day). Am I missing something? The Dire Reverend 11:38, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Fix'd --Ghostwheel 16:46, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Idea to combine with race rebuilding

Make each race get 5 points to spend on abilities. They must spend at least 1 point on each type. Abilities cost 3 (really good ability), 2 (good ability), or 1 (average ability) point. So, using some examples from the page here:

• Elf - Elvish Precision 2, Keen Senses 2, Agile Grace 1
• Gnome - Infuse Energy 3, Small 1, At Hand 1
• Half-Orc - Burning Rage 2, Furious Charge 1, Two Worlds in One 2

Something like that. That might also help balance out templates (halflings might have to give up a better ability than "small" to become a daywalker -- they might be disallowed from trading small because it is worth less than Vampiric Toughness). --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 18:50, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Could be, though I think that adds too much complexity for what I'm shooting for... --Ghostwheel 01:00, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ratings

BackHandOfFate favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!

While I am usually the type to relish in the details of a character build, I favor this article because it is an attempt to make D&D less time consuming to start up. I respect the attempt to get the game further away from number crunching while not leaving any one race without its merits. The variant rule could, in my view, use some fine tuning. However, as is, I could see myself having a fun time using these races.

	Quey dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	I don't really agree with the reasoning for this variant. Of course certain creatures are going to be less likely to be a great fighter or powerful caster, but so what? Is the game supposed to be an egalitarian wonderland? This may fit better in a 4th or 5th game, but I would not use it in a 3.5 game. It mechanically works okay, but I don't see it as fitting into the system as is.

So what? So you'll never see an orcish wizard or a halfling barbarian who isn't using specific cheese to ignore the penalties they take if the person is concerned about what they can bring to a party or not be outperformed by everyone else. Even worse than that, it shafts the people who don't understand how much it hurts their character to big something as suboptimal as a -2 (or even -4 for an orcish wizard) to their primary stat and who only want to play something that doesn't fit the mold.

So... you support punishing people who want to play something that's not in the teensy tiny little mold that WotC defines? Life isn't fair. That's why games should be, and everyone should have an equal starting point. Or else you should roll a d6 at the start of each chess game to see how many extra rooks you start with. --Ghostwheel (talk) 08:05, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

If you're going to look at it from a pure character statistics standpoint of a player making a character, you simply choose the best race for the class, hands down. If you're going for roleplaying, then it doesn't really matter if race and class don't mesh perfectly. Those are the extremes. I know many people who really go for the optimizing, and a few people who eschew maximum power for interesting roleplaying. But I'm not exactly sure what the big problem is. Are there a lot of people wanting to play a half-orc wizard (who, by the way, get only -2 Int) only to be discouraged by the 5% higher chance that enemies will make their save? I'd hardly call it a punishment, no, not at all. It's a tradeoff. There are many possibilities there, roleplaying wise and for powergaming. But it's not like one blindly goes choosing a race and class combination and then get frustrated and calls the game unfair when the human barbarian does more damage than one's own halfling barbarian (heck, he even gets +2 AC).

I can say I don't really have this problem. I would argue that every base class is viable in every base race. That said, you must accept that not every Cleric is going to be the same, and there are many different ways to make them playable. There's a wide spectrum of options. I am currently playing a monk who (gasp!) didn't take Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. I'm doing wonderfully. My friend made a rogue who dumped Dex. And guess what? It worked out great. And not only are these two characters not only great for roleplaying, they actually performing on par with everyone else, perhaps better than some! That's saying a lot, because we have a couple of those min/maxin', Monkey Grippin', feats and flawsin' power gamers in our group.

Yeah, it isn't fair, but it's only not fair in that, unless you're REALLY unfamiliar game, you're suffering 10% loss at most. And just to be clear, every PLAYER has EXACTLY the same starting point: a blank character sheet. The choices they make are their own, and they live with the consequences. The perceived loss of equality means so many more gains in flavor and mechanics. It doesn't make any sense to have gnomes that are, on average, just as strong as half-orcs.

Just know that D&D has come a long way. It isn't WotC who decided that races are actually different. If you look way back, you'll find that some races had level caps on some classes, or couldn't play some classes at all! I find that interesting too, as it has implications for the world. Some races just didn't produce powerful casters, so what does their civilization do? Players can figure something out. They always do.--Quey (talk) 09:32, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

	Fluffykittens likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	Far better than the current system- unfortunately, it interacts poorly than the current system in some ways, but it solves more problems than it creates.

Surgo is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.

Not a bad take, but I don't think it really does what it promises. For example, catfolk still make the best fighting men after level 6. There's no numerical advantage, but the ability provides a benefit that's far and away better for fighting men than almost any other ability on the page would. Ultimately, I don't believe the shoehorning is avoidable and would like to see some acknowledgment of it. It is better than the shoehorning provided by races with stat modifiers (we can finally have orc spellcasters now yay), but it still exists. Also, I just can't get behind a system where you can't put a 20 in a stat to start.

I've talked to a few people, and there are a variety of opinions on which race is "the best" for the "fighting man" which makes me think that there is no best and that it's actually pretty balanced. Also, if you really want a 20 to a stat (how is that even important? Why is it so important? It does nothing but stat bloat), just give each player a +2 bonus to put into whatever stat they want. Not that hard, and doesn't shoehorn anyone. --Ghostwheel (talk) 08:30, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

	DanielDraco favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	Huh. Yeah, this is a much better way to do things. I think any races I write in the future will take this approach.

	Havvy favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	Simplifying the practical anarchy of rules that is 3.5e races in such a way that they get the meat of what makes the game fun: powers, leads to better enjoyment and less jumping through hoops to find statistical bonuses. It also removes the pitfalls of level adjustment and monstrous hit dice that came with Savage Species.

	ThunderGod Cid favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	Although I slightly contributed to this page, that doesn't take away from the merits of its premise. You get the bulk of what people want in a race without jumping through all the hoops of Level Adjustment and/or Racial Hit Dice, and races still manage to be unique and flavorful. All in all, it offers a lot of solid options; now it just needs more.

MisterSinister favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!

This is one of the best implementations of races that I have read. I'm a full subscriber to this philosophy, and believe that it's the best way to avoid shoehorning people into race-class pairs, but at the same time make it so that people playing different races feel different. While I find the ability listing a bit arbitrarily-weighted (but that's just Ghost's focus on combat and numbers talking again), the basic premise is very good.

Foxwarrior likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.

For the sorts of races that WotC seems to like; that is, lots of different creatures that are basically humanoid, this variant rule distills everything that is interesting about such races down into a concise, mechanically interesting, and distinct trio of abilities, instead of the numeric nonsense that 3.5e generally uses. Such a sorting mechanism also makes it easy to design new races for campaign-specific purposes on the go. However, it's not a very nice system for making really weird races, like birds, bees, and bouncy castles.

	Aarnott favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	This allows just so many more options than the traditional race rules without being more complex. I love the fact that each race offers a unique feel, but also doesn't straightjacket towards any particular class.

Skill ranks

For the catfolk passive ability, it states that they are considered to have a number of ranks in the climb and jump skills equal to their HD + 3. Do these skill ranks qualify them for feats, prestige classes, and the like, much as normal ranks do? Paleomancer 23:59, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. --Ghostwheel 04:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Darkvision

Only tieflings have any sort of darkvision or low light vision. Why?

Probably because it's a pretty boring ability to have as only one of three.

Given the balance of night vision in D&D normally, it would probably be more accurate to give Humans Night Blindness instead. --Foxwarrior 02:28, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

But it seems that darkvision is very important for races such as drow or dwarves, if for nothing more than flavor. Is there any way to incorporate minor abilities like that?

Bonus Damage in Combat Abilities

It seems to me that the range of effectiveness for racial bonus damage (specifically elemental bonuses versus, say, stealth attack bonuses) are pretty far divided. The genasi, for example, get elemental bonus damage when dealing damage of that element once per encounter--so that's a somewhat strenous requirement to fulfill for damage that could very well resisted or immunity'd away. The goblin, on the other hand, gets an equal amount of untyped bonus damage on every attack in the first round of combat. Especially at the higher levels, I see a strong distinction between goblin meleers and air genasi thunder mages.

I feel like the some of the damage abilities should be toned down or up, because they really don't match up well. --YouLostMe (talk) 02:06, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Alternatively, that air genasi could just use a shocking sword :-P

That said, you're not always going first, which is why the goblin gets a bigger boost while the air genasi, taking into consideration their ability and having ways to activate it, will almost always get it off in combat which is why it's slightly stronger. --Ghostwheel (talk) 07:06, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that's balancing. At higher levels, the damage type the genasi deals (iff they use electricity attacks, only once per encounter) is one that every outsider basically has immunity to, but the damage the goblin deals doesn't allow DR or ER or anything, and comes off any kind of attack. Being able to only do that on the first round means the goblin will at be doing very potent damage 8/10 combats, while the air genasi is stuck doing piddly damage 2/10 combats. --08:35, 1 November 2012 (UTC)