Talk:Monk, Retooled (3.5 Class)

In your opinion, is it needlessly complex or just has a harsh learning curve?

Alright, so before you guys mention that this class is just far too complicated and start with the dislikes, bear with me with this one.

A big peeve of mine with most Monk fixes is that they ALL feel like if you were building a class. Aside from adding Psionics (which could make for a nice class, and I do heartily endorse Psionic Monk fixes) or maneuvers (which just hammers the idea that Swordsage is better), most fixes I see just timidly add to the class without really focusing on its main problems. I attempted that early on, and I did a few things to minimize that (Touching the Ripples, Walk the River and the Clouds, Art of Deadly Wind and Deadly Weapons were good examples), but I still felt that it was more of a build than a class, and I began to loathe my own creation. Thus, after watching (and playing) a bit of DDO, I decided to incorporate some of its principles (the Elemental ways, the Way Between the Ways being a rehash of their enhancements, and the Philosophies) and retool them a bit to have their own flavor. I am completely satisfied with the result, but even I found it's a HUGE piece of work and potentially, brutally complex to work with.

On one hand, the idea was to allow several mechanical builds to exist, and I believe I've overshot that goal a hundred times. The breadth of abilities is astonishing, particularly after 10th level where you can unlock a second Elemental way and choose another martial style if you want. Fluff-wise, it's hard to justify various visions of what a Monk should be (in comparison to a Fighter), but the divide between the Strength-focused way of Fire (Might makes Right!), the Dexterity-based way of Air (the Wind cannot be stopped!), the Constitution focus of Earth (unyielding like the Stone!) and the Wisdom basis of Water (gentle as a drop, fierce as the ocean enraged!), the peaceful ways of Harmonious Balance, the war-like discipline of Ineffable Dominion (yield and be spared; defy us and die!) or the balanced goal of the Riddle of Equilibrium should make for a variety of monasteries with wildly differing tendencies, not to mention how the Ways of the Beasts allow for a scout, a scholar or even a master diplomatt.

On the other hand, as MisterSinister pointed out on the Project Heretica Paladin talk discussion, the idea is that someone can see the class, make a nice build, and kick ass (not exactly in that way, but the message is similar). This class has the possibilities to do so, but it's not easy to understand in the first place, and might cause people to repel its use on boards everywhere.

IMO, I can't sacrifice much of the complexity of the class for a simplified version that won't do justice to the Monk problem. However, if there's a way to simplify things, I will be grateful for it. Ideally, the Wiki format should make everything simple to understand, but if you feel it IS still quite complex, don't hesitate to tell (of course, after reading this and hearing my point of view).

On another topic: while I gauged it somewhere around Rogue level, the set of abilities it has make it borderline Wizard level (borderline as you can't do Wishes, Miracles, Gates for free, and change your composition every single day to face every challenge with little effort; still, it can solve a lot of obstacles). You're free to tell me if you agree with the idea or not. Certainly it's NOT Fighter-level, at least how I see it. T.G. Oskar 06:07, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's too much of a wall of text for me to read it right now, but I can tell you that bullet points help a bit sometimes, as could spoilers, possibly.

I'm also a little confused about the focus of this class. Are Monks supposed to be characters who combine the powers of the elements, alignments, animals, and wuxia into one overloaded mass? SRD Monks seemed to be going for just subtle wuxia and a touch of alignment; psionic and martial monks go for wuxia through the use of established power sources.

When you say "a monk that follows the Path of the Riddle of Equilibrium follows an inevitable axiom of the universe; good and evil cannot exist within each other" do you mean "must" instead of "cannot"? --Foxwarrior 06:49, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and Perfect Self: Path of Harmonious Balance is almost completely obsoleted by Wholeness of Body, just 18 levels earlier. Also, DR 5/Adamantine is not going to be on the same level of power as any +5 bonus to a non-skill d20 roll.

It's also strange to give water walk and air walk at the same time, since you can just air walk an inch above the water. --Foxwarrior 06:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

IMO, some of the focus of martial maneuvers comes from wuxia. Psionics and martial maneuvers work in a different method.
Still, it's pretty close to what you mentioned: the combination of the essence of the elements, philosophies (not necessarily alignments, as peace is not inherently a Good thing and even Good people wage war or seek to dominate above others) and the beasts through wuxia (or ki, if you prefer). I like to use ki as a power source as I found it a clever way to handle per-day abilities, but the way the Ninja from Comp. Adventurer handled it left a lot to be desired.
As for the Riddle of Equilibrium, it's a mix-up; indeed, it should be "must exist within" or "cannot exist without".
Wholeness of Body can either be used as a burst or strained through method of healing, so it can coexist with fast healing; I do agree its not spectacular compared to, say, Path of Ineffable Dominion (essentially a one-hit kill). The actual counterpart on DDO is a ki based healing ability, but I wasn't sure if it would be fair or fine.
As for Water Walk and Air Walk: certainly there are slight advantages to having Water Walk, as any strong wind (or stronger) can halt the Monk if using Air Walk (barring those who follow the way of Air), whereas it can walk fine through Water Walk. It's for purposes of completion.
Finally: adding bullets totally passed over me. Thanks for pointing that out (no pun intended) - T.G. Oskar 07:08, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

The thing is, T.G. Oskar, fast healing 5 isn't a lot at level 20, so it serves two purposes: giving you maybe 10-20 extra hit points per battle, and ensuring that you enter every battle fully healed. Wholeness of Body gives several times as many hit points in combat, and it can be replenished trivially (Only 4e has the "uh-uh-uh, that angry goblin who wants to kill you isn't a real opponent" rule). If you didn't want Monks to have unlimited self-healing at level 2, you should probably add a ki point cost.

The problem with doing both Water Walk and Air Walk at the same time for completeness is that doing so costs you four extra lines. Also, you reveal another problem when Water Walk is only occasionally more useful than Air Walk for non-Air Monks: In order to make an informed decision as to which element they want, they must read the entire massive class. The Sorcerer may have much more text than this in total, but your spell decisions ten levels earlier don't interact much with your spell decisions now, so the amount of concentrated effort needed to make a decent Sorcerer isn't as extreme. --Foxwarrior 17:27, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not that I didn't want unlimited self-healing, but it's a "one thing leads to the other" that led to this monster. To make the long story short, it passed from "Monk level x 2 as a standard action" to "Monk level x Wis modifier as a standard action" to "Monk level X Wis modifier as a standard action, spend 1 point of ki to recharge pool" to "Monk level x Wis modifier as a swift action, recharges at the beginning of encounter, spend 1 Ki point to gain a benefit". Part of how that development happened was due to changes after presenting the Project Heretica Paladin, which influenced the biggest change (the self-refilling action). Since, right from the beginning, I wanted Lay on Hands and Wholeness of Body to be similar (pools of healing that can be expended all at once or spread the uses), adding a ki cost would be counter-productive because it would eliminate the whole need for a pool (thus nullifying the effect of existing items such as the Caduceus Bracers, or the spells from Complete Champion that provide a boost to Lay on Hands), so any change must be carefully considered.
Regarding the boost: the original idea was that Wholeness of Body was a "second-wind" effect, so it should ensure your survival. Before I went with bonuses based on the choice of Elemental Way, it was a flat +5 bonus to AC and Saving Throws: as you may see, Air took the AC (and added Reflex saves) and Water took the "all saving throws" bonus, so I needed to do something thematical to both Fire and Earth. Fire, being offensive in nature, took the bonus to attack and damage rolls (fitting the "best defense is a good offense" PoV), and Earth took the damage reduction bit, which by 2nd level is quite potent (save against an Orc with a falchion, perhaps). I agree with you, though, that it doesn't scale well. Any ideas regarding how to boost it? DR 5+class level or adding a bonus to Fortitude saving throws seem like decent options.
Regarding Water Walk and Air Walk...originally, the ability was limited only to Air Walk. A second revision added Water Walk, and it was simpler than the current version, to a point (less words, but required a hefty Balance check to remain afloat/aloft or else waste a move action). Keeping it relegated only to Air Walk, however, causes a fluff problem: Air Monks have it easy (they walk on air, the element they mastered), but Earth has it harder (you're repelled by gravity?), Fire has it just as hard (you walk on hot air currents?) and Water has it impossible (how do you walk on air without a water source nearby? Perhaps water vapor, but that means you can't air-walk on a desert or in arid areas).
As for the difficulty with decisions: I'm not sure whether you like ToB or not, but wouldn't it be fair to compare it to the decision-making of a Swordsage, rather than a Sorcerer (which isn't on the same balance point)? Certainly spell decisions made 10 levels earlier don't influence the decisions made at the current level (not even those made 8, 6, 4 or even 2 levels ago), but making a decent Sorcerer DOES need some effort (unless you got a good grasp on system mastery, which leads you to the spells with multiple uses such as Alter Self or Disintegrate, those with uses going beyond their level range such as Glitterdust and Grease, or ways to make spells bypass some of their restrictions such as Energy Substitution + any elemental orb). Though, you'd do well in expanding upon that point: I understand the class very well, but in order to simplify it so that other people can understand it, I could use multiple points of view and how they'd understand it. - T.G. Oskar 00:40, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not that I don't want unlimited healing either, it's just that Fast Healing 5 does very little at level 20 other than give you unlimited healing, which is not very much if you've already had unlimited healing for 18 levels.

Looking at these CR 20 monsters, DR 5+class level would actually be quite good. If it weren't for Power Attack, that is. Speaking of Power Attack, against Power Attacking monsters, a +5 bonus to AC is worth as much as 5-10 DR, and against monsters that don't have the spare attack bonus, it's worth much much more.

Why does the duration for the bonus increase with level? You already get more ki points.

I'm not sure why you are describing the difficulties of flavors for Air Walk for non-Air Monks, since you gave them Air Walk too.

I grudgingly admit that Sorcerers aren't quite as easy to build as I was implying, and learning charm person at one level does have some negative synergy with learning dominate person later on, due to overlapping roles. It's just slightly annoying that you can't naively assume that all elements are equally good, because some are explicitly weaker at some levels than others are (If a party of Monks levels up from level 7 to level 8, the Air Monk will improve the most (Well, disregarding more complex synergies that depend on specific build)). --Foxwarrior 01:38, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I feel silly for not thinking about it. Fast healing by that level is weak; how about Regeneration, and maybe boost the amount of regeneration per round?
Power Attack is the main reason why I support percentage-based damage reduction. It equalizes all damage after a certain point.
I seriously dislike what WotC did with the ki system by limiting every single ability based off ki to one round (and Pathfailer continues that trend). That's the only thing that makes the CAdv Ninja feel like such a fail (aside from Sudden Strike, but the latter could have seen some use with proper boosts to Hide and actually longer invisibility).
I could return it to its original version (Walk the Clouds), but divorcing it from the elements would imply having to explain how the Monk can pull that trait off. Then again, you could define stuff like Abundant Step and Empty Body as their access to the "Void", so I guess that's my explanation. Agree with that? - T.G. Oskar 09:18, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

At the risk of being a downer...

Complexity aside, I saw this class had Medium BAB and then I cried. Monks having Medium BAB is just a problem as far as I'm concerned, one that is so egregious that it makes me instantly inclined to dislike it. I'm sure certain members of the community will concur with that sentiment. I know that may cause issues with flurry of blows (it may not; hell, it may make flurry more useful since you could actually hit with something), but flurry probably isn't even necessary when your attack sequence is that much improved. - TG Cid 03:37, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I agree that Monks should have full BAB. However, I've heard very good arguments from the opposing side, defending medium BAB (particularly those that see the Monk less of a warrior and more of a skill-monkey with decent fighting skills), specifying that, by supercharging the damage you deal with each fist, plus Flurry kicking in the right way and adding attack bonuses, full BAB becomes needless.
That said: have you noticed Martial Training? The first thing that Martial Training mentions is that, if you are "unarmored and either unarmed or wielding special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, sai, siangham, shuriken; I also add club, dart and slings, plus the other special monk weapons in other sourcebooks), [you fight] as if [your] base attack bonus was equal to [your] class level (i.e.: 1 BAB per class level, plus all the full attacks). Thus, a 7th level monk fights as if she had a base attack bonus of +7 and may make a second attack as a full attack action, as usual." The second point is that Flurry of Blows is but one of the many styles of combat that Monks have (the others are much better renditions of the fighting styles from Unearthed Arcana). What I did forgot to mention was that you counted as having full BAB for purposes of combat maneuvers (such as grapple).
What I do believe, as far as I've perceived, that the members of the community WILL agree on is that tacking on full BAB directly to the class is much, much simpler than having a conditional method of medium/full BAB. Note, of course, that this is a decision I made when I revised my earlier version of the Monk, which DID have full BAB, implementing a concept from one of the sources of inspiration for the current version (Dungeons & Dragons Online, which actually HAS a working Monk...), and particularly so that special monk weapons had a reason to be taken (aside from the other such bonuses). - T.G. Oskar 03:53, 13 June 2012 (UTC)