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Luigifan18 moved page Talk:Viewtiful Warrior (3.5e Class) to User talk:Luigifan18:Viewtiful Warrior (3.5e Class): Redirect creation for the sake of links
== Ratings ==
{{Rating |rater=HB Forged
|rating=oppose
|reason=It would've been a good idea on paper. In practice, though, everyone was confused, & the campaign ended in your typical "rocks fall, everyone dies" fashion.
}}
:Response on What Ratings Do: Downrating an article doesn't get it deleted. Only when an article becomes Community Opposed does anything even happen, and that is usually just an admin moving the article off the main space into a user sub-page, just like any unfinished or in-progress article. That's it. Deletion only happens if something is seriously wrong, like a site violation. Counter rating with a "Favor" on an article (stating that you feel that this is one of the best examples of homebrew material on the site, desiring to use it yourself and highly recommending it to others) on the grounds that you don't want it deleted is a disservice to the ratings system for helping users find material and get feedback on its use. I strongly recommend reviewing your rating. --[[User:Ganteka Future|Ganteka Future]] ([[User talk:Ganteka Future|talk]]) 12:26, 11 February 2019 (MST)
{{Rating |rater=Ganteka Future
|rating=oppose
|reason=Sorry man. I know this is like, your baby, and the massive amount of hours put into it show a lot of love for both the project and the source material. It... the class is the 19th longest article on the entire wiki for all articles. It's too clunky to use. Expecting a DM to sit and read this to approve it for a character... I was struggling to get through the first level. The writing style you've adopted for this even bloats things further, with parenthetical flavor text inside flavor text interspersed between bits of mechanical information. Without dedicating hours of my own free time on this, consulting others, I'm not sure what specific advice to go with here, but as is, it isn't in a state that's really usable for people. Your sample character should have clued you in. Imagine fitting that on a character sheet for a player. Look how long that is and how much explanation is needed. I know you love this stuff. If you want other people to enjoy it in the translated style of D&D, it really needs an overhaul. I used to have a really painfully long class bloated with abilities and flavor. I went through 8 total overhaul revisions on it so far. It is okay to totally rewrite things. This needs it.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Leziad
|rating=opposeOppose
|reason=First off, it's too strong for high, ignoring abuses adding both wisdom mod and charisma mod (multiple times) to attacks alongside full-bab is a very very bad idea.
The ability score to attack/damage is too much, as simple as that. It makes the Viewtfiul Warrior's damage potential so high it can kill enemies of CR massively higher with no difficulties. Alongside the Voomerang, it can kills hordes or bosses within a single round and end an encounter at the drop of a hat.
Basically the class is overpowered and needs major redesign, this time with brevity and less 'gamey' design. EDIT: It has not been touched in a while, so back to oppose it is.
}}
Loopholes in the VFX abilities? Could you please point them out? The whole A large part of the reason I go into so much detail is to make sure that loopholes are kept to a minimum, so help in removing the loopholes that currently exist would be ''greatly'' appreciated. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
{{Rating |rater=Undead Knave
|rating=oppose
}}
...It can deal over 10000 damage to the Tarrasque at level 7? Wait, what?!? The Viewtiful Warrior's meant to do a lot of damage in a short amount of time (and then need to retreat and recharge his powers), but that sounds <s>a little</s> extreme. Anyways, I fully acknowledge that putting the Viewtiful Warrior at High balance was a mistake - it's Very High now. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC) :So since you've changed it it's a lot more extreme, and I haven't had a chance to actually run the numbers yet due to reasons, but they are a lot less extreme. At this point, a Viewtiful Warrior could still kill the Tarrasque somewhere between levels 3 and 8 (can math more when I have more time), but you wouldn't be able to kill as many of Big T in a single round no matter what any more. I'll go over the things it takes the next time I actually have access to a computer. --UK ::Hmmm... I'm curious to see what you mean by that. Just how exactly does the Viewtiful Warrior dish out enough damage to kill a Tarrasque at level 8? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 01:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC) :::To begin with, I apologize for taking so long to respond to this. I was without my computer for a couple weeks. Getting down to things, though, the biggest part of this particular problem stems from Voomerangs. As a full round action when slow is active, they go out to 1200' dealing 4d8+2 ability scores damage (Str and Cha) and you get two ability scores (Dex and Cha) added to your attack roll that already has full BAB. Then you also do extra damage and are more likely to hit for every successful attack, and you get Zoom before too long so you can add another time and a half of your best ability score to both attack and damage. You flat out state that the Voomerang can hit the same creature more than once and that it can steer itself. That means that for a big creature, you can have it circle inside that creatures space so it just keeps getting attack after attack after attack. :::Since I crunched the numbers, you've changed things a bit, but you still win every encounter that can be won by flat damage. Seeing as almost every battle can be won damage, especially if it can get Ghost Touch on all its attacks, there really isn't anything that can stand in its way, especially a levels it's supposed to be facing. --[[User:Undead Knave|Undead_Knave]] ([[User talk:Undead Knave|talk]]) 04:23, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
{{Rating |rater=YX33A
|rating=neutral
::I'm pretty happy with the Viewtiful Warrior the way it is now, as everything it can do is very closely based on stuff Joe, Silvia, and Alastor can actually do in the <u>Viewtiful Joe</u> games. And trust me, in the game it comes from, it is ''not'' overpowered at all. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 20:21, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::The game it comes from doesn't seem as relevant as the game you're moving it into. Power is a function of level here, so if it's too strong at too early a level you shift things around so that it comes into that power later. It's possible that the games took place from levels 11-20 (or whatever) in DnD terms rather than levels 1-20, so you just do that and maybe shift up the prestige class entries a bit.
:::Or you work with Leziad to patch things up in a more general way, that's good too (and probably better IMO). - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup> 23:46, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
== Do you want help?==
:::The thing is, the Viewtiful Warrior's damage output is ''only'' meant to be much higher than average while VFX — specifically VFX Slow or Zoom In (or especially both) — is in use. Like I said, it's a "burst damage" class. Also, many aspects of each VFX power (well, Slow and Mach Speed, anyways) are really more for puzzle-solving than combat, though even those have combat applications against specific enemies. The VFX powers already required a lot of bending to translate them from fast-paced 2-D real-time combat (beat-'em-up) to tactical grid-based turn-based combat (RPG).
:::Also, if the problem is the Viewtiful Warrior being overpowered, I can't just add Dramatic Attacks in. What should I tone down or remove in exchange? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:37, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::: The big problem with VFX right now is that you add your Cha to attack and damage waaay waay too much. Usually adding it once is fine and do a good damage boost, it become really powerful at twice and completely bonkers beyond that. Me and a friend did some calculation and it could easily kill many CR 20 enemies at level 7. There way to increase damage in VFX without making it too strong, but first some trimming must be done on the abilities themselves. As an exercise trim each VFX to what you think should be the absolute minimum, this version will not be final it will be our working ground. Once that is settled we will work our way back up, adding extra abilities and the like. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 22:55, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::The only thing I can think of to take out is the "increase damage of all attacks not affecting the Viewtiful Warrior and his allies" clause. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 02:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::: One example would be be to make the VFX Slow effect simply like slow instead of super slow (slow is a 3rd level spell and this superslow seem like a 5th level spell, additionally it affect all creatures save you (kinda) with no save, does it sound like a 1st character should have so much power?). --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 02:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::No, but at the same time, I don't want to take it out either. Maybe the slow effect could become more powerful as levels are gained, eventually capping about where it is now. ...Actually, that sounds pretty good. Will try to implement in the morning; past my bedtime. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 03:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::All right, done. Most of the Viewtiful Warrior's class features have been delayed, and VFX Slow in particular has had its effects stretched out so that it doesn't reach full power until level 20. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 00:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
