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Luigifan18 moved page Talk:Viewtiful Warrior (3.5e Class) to User talk:Luigifan18:Viewtiful Warrior (3.5e Class): Redirect creation for the sake of links
== Ratings ==
{{Rating |rater=HB Forged
|rating=oppose
|reason=It would've been a good idea on paper. In practice, though, everyone was confused, & the campaign ended in your typical "rocks fall, everyone dies" fashion.
}}
:Response on What Ratings Do: Downrating an article doesn't get it deleted. Only when an article becomes Community Opposed does anything even happen, and that is usually just an admin moving the article off the main space into a user sub-page, just like any unfinished or in-progress article. That's it. Deletion only happens if something is seriously wrong, like a site violation. Counter rating with a "Favor" on an article (stating that you feel that this is one of the best examples of homebrew material on the site, desiring to use it yourself and highly recommending it to others) on the grounds that you don't want it deleted is a disservice to the ratings system for helping users find material and get feedback on its use. I strongly recommend reviewing your rating. --[[User:Ganteka Future|Ganteka Future]] ([[User talk:Ganteka Future|talk]]) 12:26, 11 February 2019 (MST)
{{Rating |rater=Ganteka Future
|rating=oppose
|reason=Sorry man. I know this is like, your baby, and the massive amount of hours put into it show a lot of love for both the project and the source material. It... the class is the 19th longest article on the entire wiki for all articles. It's too clunky to use. Expecting a DM to sit and read this to approve it for a character... I was struggling to get through the first level. The writing style you've adopted for this even bloats things further, with parenthetical flavor text inside flavor text interspersed between bits of mechanical information. Without dedicating hours of my own free time on this, consulting others, I'm not sure what specific advice to go with here, but as is, it isn't in a state that's really usable for people. Your sample character should have clued you in. Imagine fitting that on a character sheet for a player. Look how long that is and how much explanation is needed. I know you love this stuff. If you want other people to enjoy it in the translated style of D&D, it really needs an overhaul. I used to have a really painfully long class bloated with abilities and flavor. I went through 8 total overhaul revisions on it so far. It is okay to totally rewrite things. This needs it.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Leziad
|rating=Oppose
|reason=First off, it's too strong for high, ignoring abuses adding both wisdom mod and charisma mod (multiple times) to attacks alongside full-bab is a very very bad idea.
The VFX abilities are far too complex and full of loopholes. It somehow manage to be too much fluff and crunch at the same time, not sure how you did.
The ability score to attack/damage is too much, as simple as that. It makes the Viewtfiul Warrior's damage potential so high it can kill enemies of CR massively higher with no difficulties. Alongside the Voomerang, it can kills hordes or bosses within a single round and end an encounter at the drop of a hat.
Basically the class is overpowered and needs major redesign, this time with brevity and less 'gamey' design.
EDIT: It has not been touched in a while, so back to oppose it is.
}}
Loopholes in the VFX abilities? Could you please point them out? A large part of the reason I go into so much detail is to make sure that loopholes are kept to a minimum, so help in removing the loopholes that currently exist would be ''greatly'' appreciated. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
{{Rating |rater=Undead Knave
|rating=oppose
|reason=I didn't read the entirety of this, but I didn't need to. A cursory glance at VFX Zoom, VFX Slow, and Voomerangs, allows a moderately optimized Viewtiful Warrior to deal approximately 10000 damage to the Tarrasque at level 7 without provoking an attack of opportunity. I will note that it is rather more damage for any creature that is at least large that does not have damage reduction as large as the Tarrasque's. We all recognize that Big T really sucks, but you shouldn't be able to kill him with damage from attacks in levels with single digits.
What the hell, Luigifan?
Edit: Just noticed this was rated at High balance point. I repeat: What the hell, Luigifan?
}}
...It can deal over 10000 damage to the Tarrasque at level 7? Wait, what?!? The Viewtiful Warrior's meant to do a lot of damage in a short amount of time (and then need to retreat and recharge his powers), but that sounds <s>a little</s> extreme. Anyways, I fully acknowledge that putting the Viewtiful Warrior at High balance was a mistake - it's Very High now. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:So since you've changed it it's a lot more extreme, and I haven't had a chance to actually run the numbers yet due to reasons, but they are a lot less extreme. At this point, a Viewtiful Warrior could still kill the Tarrasque somewhere between levels 3 and 8 (can math more when I have more time), but you wouldn't be able to kill as many of Big T in a single round no matter what any more. I'll go over the things it takes the next time I actually have access to a computer. --UK
::Hmmm... I'm curious to see what you mean by that. Just how exactly does the Viewtiful Warrior dish out enough damage to kill a Tarrasque at level 8? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 01:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
:::To begin with, I apologize for taking so long to respond to this. I was without my computer for a couple weeks. Getting down to things, though, the biggest part of this particular problem stems from Voomerangs. As a full round action when slow is active, they go out to 1200' dealing 4d8+2 ability scores damage (Str and Cha) and you get two ability scores (Dex and Cha) added to your attack roll that already has full BAB. Then you also do extra damage and are more likely to hit for every successful attack, and you get Zoom before too long so you can add another time and a half of your best ability score to both attack and damage. You flat out state that the Voomerang can hit the same creature more than once and that it can steer itself. That means that for a big creature, you can have it circle inside that creatures space so it just keeps getting attack after attack after attack.
:::Since I crunched the numbers, you've changed things a bit, but you still win every encounter that can be won by flat damage. Seeing as almost every battle can be won damage, especially if it can get Ghost Touch on all its attacks, there really isn't anything that can stand in its way, especially a levels it's supposed to be facing. --[[User:Undead Knave|Undead_Knave]] ([[User talk:Undead Knave|talk]]) 04:23, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
{{Rating |rater=YX33A
|rating=neutral
Oh, also, that thing you did with Wisdom is ''evil''; it means that the optimal ability score placement for a level 2 Viewtiful Warrior is fundamentally different from that of a level 12 Viewtiful Warrior. Stunning Fist isn't ''terrible'', but one special once/round attack is not worth not dumping an entire ability score, and VFX Replay can make buffing the Save DC mostly irrelevant. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 05:01, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
:Actually, the level at which Mach Speed is obtained represents that the hero gets it late in the first stage of the game, which is true in both <u>Viewtiful Joe</u> and <u>Viewtiful Joe 2</u>. Going by the logic that Joe (and Silvia) steadily increase in level as they progress through the game, culminating in being level 20 by the time they fight the final boss (who is also a level-20 character), then Mach Speed should actually be obtained ''earlier'' (both of the first 2 <u>Viewtiful Joe</u> games have 7 stages), but I felt like I should delay it to the time of VFX Replay (obtained early in <u>Viewtiful Joe 2</u>'s second stage) for D&D balance reasons. In case you're wondering, VFX Zoom is obtained about ¼ of the way through stage 2 in <u>Viewtiful Joe 1</u> and very early in stage 3 of <u>Viewtiful Joe 2</u>; the explanation is that Joe leveled up more slowly in the second game because he was sharing his XP with Silvia in that game, whereas he was on his own in the first. (I'm also assuming that the hero gains levels rapidly in the first few stages, but then his progression slows ''way'' down for the last 4 stages because only the bosses and minibosses have a CR close enough to his level to provide significant XP... well, actually, the bosses' CR tends to be ''higher''. Especially Fire Leo from <u>VJ1</u>. Friggin' Fire Leo... argh!)
:The slot machine thing is supposed to be a specific example of a broader principle. Spinning objects in general get slowed way down with VFX Slow (or sped up with Mach Speed). --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 17:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
:::Hmm. I think I'm getting the theme of Viewtiful Joe, now: cheap Hollywood tricks as magic. You're clearly missing VFX Montage, VFX Pause Monologue, VFX Flashback, and VFX Shaky Camera Work. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 18:51, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
::::Yep - VFX is based on Hollywood tricks, as the whole series is based on cinematic traditions. VFX Slow is "Bullet Time", and VFX Mach Speed is essentially fast-forward. As for those VFX powers you described, I didn't make them because they don't actually appear in any <u>Viewtiful Joe </u> games, as far as I know; they might be in <u>Red Hot Rumble</u>, which I unfortunately haven't played. The ideas are so entertaining that I just might make them feats, though. Also, "VFX Shaky Camera Work" might actually be [[VFX Scratch (3.5e Feat)|VFX Scratch]] from <u>Double Trouble</u>. ::::Also, VFX Mach Speed is actually kinda weak in the <u>Viewtiful Joe</u> games, as unlike Slow, it does ''nothing'' to help you get past an enemy's defenses. This results in your attack barrage literally bouncing off the enemy more often than not. VFX Slow is the strongest VFX power by ''far'', and the other VFX powers are usually at their best being used to augment VFX Slow (with a Red-Hot One Hundred used under VFX Slow being considered the best attack in the game by massive leaps and bounds). I actually considered throwing in something to reflect VFX Slow's defense-piercing qualities by letting it bypass deflection bonuses, but ultimately, VFX Slow's tendency to override enemy defenses got written in in the form of - guess what - the Stunning Fist feat. There are some enemies that are best handled by just using VFX Slow and punching them repeatedly until you finally break down their defensive aura (the nurses in <u>Viewtiful Joe 2 </u> are an excellent example of this), and I decided to represent that by eventually giving the Viewtiful Warrior Stunning Fist rather than giving him an another vertical power boost. Actually, in the <u>Viewtiful Joe </u> games, VFX Slow and VFX Zoom both provide a 50% attack power boost, and they stack with each other in that regard. Thus, they're actually ''weaker'' in D&D than they are in the source material. I might nerf Mach Speed a little, though, since as I said at the beginning of this paragraph, it's actually not that strong for actual fights. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 19:21, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
{{Rating |rater=Franken Kesey
|rating=oppose
|reason=Far too many details, requires the continues continuous re-referencing; features are too much for one class.
}}
Too many features? Hmm... I could split the ranged attacker and blade fighter into their own classes, since they're based on different characters... Also, I've been playing <u>Viewtiful Joe </u> lately, and the VFX bar isn't actually that big, but it does recharge at a decent rate. So I might cut down the maximum VFX pool and boost up the recharge rate. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 01:56, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
:VFX pool cut, class features removed from bonus feat list. The Viewtiful Warrior can't have access to all of its class features now. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 17:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
*Hallway full of trap runes: Between "Toss-Up" and "Sure Loss": It really depends on what sort of saves the traps allow. If they allow Reflex saves, the Viewtiful Warrior's got the challenge in the bag. His base Reflex save is good, and he can make it even better through his VFX. The first trap might catch him off-guard, but once he realizes what he's up against, he'll just use VFX Slow to dodge everything... well, everything that ''can'' be dodged. Traps that work against Will saves have a 50-50 chance of working, as the Viewtiful Warrior's Will save is good, but he can't augment it with VFX. Traps that work off of Fortitude saves? The Viewtiful Warrior's screwed. As a side note, since the Viewtiful Warrior doesn't have access to any divination effects, he has to rely on pure perception to find the traps. Against traps that get ''triggered'' by reading them, such as ''symbol'' spells, he's in for a rough time... but not any rougher than what a fighter, monk, rogue, or other nonmagical class would have to endure.
*Fire Giant: Sure Win: Wow. This actually made me have to think a bit about the way the Viewtiful Warrior interacts with other game effects. As I described him before running him through the test, he could, while in VFX Slow, punch or kick any projectile back the way it came by making an attack roll against it and beating its original attack roll. But punching back ''boulders''? If the boulders are bigger than the Viewtiful Warrior himself is, hatthat's not going to happen. I'm basing this ruling on the fight with Flinty Stone in <u>Viewtiful Joe 2</u>. One of his attacks is to toss a big orange sphere at you; the sphere is about as big as Joe and Silvia are. While the sphere is in motion, I'm pretty sure that they ''can't'' punch it back at him - if the player tries it, he'll just wind up autododging the attack. The heroes can push the ball around once it's landed (curiously, it loses all momentum when hitting the ground), and Joe can even punch it with Mach Speed to get his aura up and generate clones. But attacking the boulder while it's in motion doesn't work. Anyways, I'm getting sidetracked... so, no boulder-punching, but the Viewtiful Warrior can dodge boulders so easily that it doesn't even matter. In fact, the Viewtiful Warrior shines in straight-up melee combat, even more so than a monk does. With smart use of his VFX, the Viewtiful Warrior can easily beat a fire giant in a toe-to-toe fight, even without Mach Speed.
*Young Blue Dragon: Likely Loss: It's the standard ground-versus-air problem... A Viewtiful Warrior is very capable of fighting in midair, and he can get up higher than many other classes thanks to his double-jump, but unlike his advanced variants, he can't actually fly or hover through class features (yes, I know ''Alastor'' can fly, but Joe and Silvia can't... I think it's safe to say that most Viewtiful Warriors can't fly, and the reason that Alastor can is because he's basically a half-fiend). Anyways, the Viewtiful Warrior is ultimately more limited in terms of midair maneuverability than even a clumsy flier; the Viewtiful Warrior has to drop back down to the ground ''sometime'' in the immediate future (Air Pummel doesn't keep him in the air forever, and he can't move laterally while using it), but the flyer doesn't. This puts him at a disadvantage against an opponent that ''can'' fly, such as a dragon, especially if it abuses that advantage by staying out of reach. The ranged Viewtiful Warrior is actually pretty likely to win, since he she can use Desperado to harass the dragon from midrange and can still shoot it normally if it stays out of her lock-on radius. The dragon can only use its breath weapon every 1d4 rounds; ranged weapons can be used until there's no ammo left (and sometimes lack of ammo is more of an inconvenience than a problem). Other Viewtiful Warriors are probably going to find themselves relying extensively on Voomerangs or Round Trip. So, basically, the Viewtiful Warrior can theoretically win this fight, but he's at a severe disadvantage unless he specializes in using ranged weapons. (And before you ask, no, you can't use VFX Slow to punch a dragon's breath weapon back at it, for a very simple reason - the breath weapon ''isn't tangible''. Punching bullets, or missiles, or arrows... yeah, the Viewtiful Warrior can do that simply enough. But even VFX can't allow someone to '''punch ''gases'' or ''plasma''!!!!''' It just plain doesn't work!!!!)
*Bebilith: Likely Win: Hmm... let's see... bebiliths are good at ambushing, but Viewtiful Warriors are good at not being ambushed. If the Viewtiful Warrior is caught ''completely'' off-guard, the bebilith probably wins, since Viewtiful Warriors aren't good at resisting poison. However, uncanny dodge makes that unlikely to happen. Rend armor is irrelevant because Viewtiful Warriors function just fine without armor (they might wear light armor for a few extra points of AC, but they don't really ''need'' it). So, on to the straight-up fight... Bebiliths fight in melee with their poisonous bite, but usually begin combat by throwing webs. A Viewtiful Warrior technically ''can'' punch a web back, but... Uh... trying to envision that breaks my brain. Nothing of that nature ever happened in the <u>Viewtiful Joe</u> series... Okay, web conundrum aside, the Viewtiful Warrior can dodge webs pretty easily, but if he ''does'' get entangled, he's lost one of his greatest assets - his mobility - and the match probably goes to the bebilith. Likewise, if the bebilith actually manages to bite the Viewtiful Warrior, his poor Fortitude save means that he's in trouble - and since the Viewtiful Warrior is first and foremost a melee combatant, he's going to be in harm's way. However, Viewtiful Dodge and VFX Slow make both of those scenarios quite unlikely. This matchup ''can'' end badly for the Viewtiful Warrior, but it probably won't.
:Oh, and by the way, this strategy probably works against most of the other monsters too. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 04:24, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
:: Ignore the SGT. There are numerous reasons why it's a horrible way to balance characters since it only presents a specific number of scenarios (some of which are likely to never come up in a number of campaigns), and it's easily bypassed by characters that aren't balanced for it at all. (Hey, I'm going to make a commoner class that gets Incorporeal at will at level 10 with a touch attack that always deals 1 damage! Watch me defeat 80% of the SGT without any risk! Isn't that wizard-level and all awesome now!? After all, bypassing and being able to dancing dance around them is beating them according to the DMG!) The final nail in the coffin though is that it uses monsters from the monster manual , which is by far the most unbalanced 3.5 book for monsters under WotC (I'm counting MM2 and MM3 as 3.0), so counting monsters from there is a poor show of actual monster power. Finally, even if you assume that they're about the same as all equal-CR monsters, the CR rules are complete bunk and should be eliminated for the most part (watch as I throw in a CR 10 humanoid with 30 HD or something). So in short, the SGT is retarded. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 06:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
:::The SGT has all the flaws you say, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful. It provides a tool for measuring characters against something other than easily misinterpreted or overly restrictive ideals. Perhaps it should never be used to declare whether a class is balanced, but it can at least show you something about a class that you haven't considered before. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 06:25, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
:::::"The Viewtiful Warrior is able to make two attacks for each one attack he would otherwise be entitled to, but each pair of attacks must be made against the same target." --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 18:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
== Or you could... ==
Y'know, make it VH. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 15:17, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:That doesn't seem like it would have completely addressed the complaints, but it probably needed to be done anyway.
:You might be able to tone it down by power shuffling and delaying. You don't want to tone down the powers for whatever reason, but I don't think you have power targets for the actual class levels. Is there something in the source that says a level 5 warrior has to have Mach Speed and Reply instead of a level 10 warrior? If you have any freedom to push back the acquisition of problematic powers or shuffle the acquisition order of things around, you might be able to get some traction there. Particularly since level 1 looks really overloaded (judging by the table, I haven't looked at the text in a long time) and the higher levels are kinda blank.
:And a policy thing to end on. While I appreciate you being on top of the CommOpp thing and moving your own articles (because less work for me and other admins is awesome), you have a week or so before it's supposed to happen. If you think the class might have some supporters in its current form or you want to try to address some criticisms, you have time to get those things in. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup> 16:44, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
::Considering what the Viewtiful Warrior's prestige classes are like, the Viewtiful Warrior itself should also be Very High. I meant for its damage output to be incredibly high from the get-go (the drawback being it becomes very weak and vulnerable if it runs out of VFX), but apparently it's so good that it blows other melee classes out of the water even with VFX's limitations. I guess I just assumed that "strong melee class = High", using the swordsage, crusader, and warblade as reference points.
::I'm pretty happy with the Viewtiful Warrior the way it is now, as everything it can do is very closely based on stuff Joe, Silvia, and Alastor can actually do in the <u>Viewtiful Joe</u> games. And trust me, in the game it comes from, it is ''not'' overpowered at all. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 20:21, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::The game it comes from doesn't seem as relevant as the game you're moving it into. Power is a function of level here, so if it's too strong at too early a level you shift things around so that it comes into that power later. It's possible that the games took place from levels 11-20 (or whatever) in DnD terms rather than levels 1-20, so you just do that and maybe shift up the prestige class entries a bit.
:::Or you work with Leziad to patch things up in a more general way, that's good too (and probably better IMO). - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup> 23:46, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
== Do you want help?==
I can probably help you to make the class mechanically high. I am offering help if you want some. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 19:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:It probably should have been Very High in the first place, as all of the prestige classes it can branch off into ([[Viewtiful Shogun (3.5e Prestige Class)|Viewtiful Shogun]], [[Viewtiful Monarch (3.5e Prestige Class)|Viewtiful Monarch]], and [[Viewtiful Captain (3.5e Prestige Class)|Viewtiful Captain]]) are pretty firmly in that balance range for varying reasons (Viewtiful Shogun has nigh-unbreakable defenses - including a good [[SRD:Fortitude|Fortitude]] save - at higher levels, Viewtiful Monarch is a spellcaster on par with the wizard ('nuff said), and Viewtiful Captain is basically "Viewtiful Warrior, but even better"). If the Viewtiful Warrior's still too strong for Very High balance (which it shouldn't be, considering that it has to compete with game-breakers like wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids), please let me know!
:Above all else, though, I want the Viewtiful Warrior's playstyle to be faithful to the home franchise. Also, its massive damage output is, at least in my eyes, justified by the limitations imposed by the VFX system. Trying to spam your VFX abilities in the <u>Viewtiful Joe</u> games generally gets you beaten up due to running out at a very inconvenient moment. You really have to know what you're doing to succeed. Thus, the Viewtiful Warrior is a "burst damage" class - he can do a lot of damage in a short amount of time, but the drawback is that he can't keep it up for long, and if he tries, he can get himself killed very quickly. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 20:15, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:: The only problem with that is that in DnD each encounter is a scene by itself, several minutes (or even hours) pass between combat encounter, allowing the Viewtiful Warrior to be fully recharged at the beginning of each combat. If you want high damage output I would do something like:
:: '''{{Anchor|Dramatic Attacks}}''' (Ex): The Viewtiful Warrior adds his charisma bonus to damage as long as he has at least one point of VFX in his VFX Pool. Additionally, whenever a VFX ability is in use, each of his attacks granted by base attack bonus deals an extra d8 damage, plus an additional d8 at 3rd level and each 3 levels thereafter, as he make each of his attacks more dramatic.
:: I understand wanting to be faithful to the game, but sometimes you must make concessions so you can fit a concept in DnD (and some require a lot of bending, like if I wanted to make a Jet Set Radio Ruddie class, I would need to make more than a few concessions.)
:: Many people said that simple wording would be better; while I agree, I know you disagree, so I won't bother you with that. Instead you should consider giving less abilities to each VFX, or maybe make them more like Tome Combat feats and the like. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 20:37, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::The thing is, the Viewtiful Warrior's damage output is ''only'' meant to be much higher than average while VFX — specifically VFX Slow or Zoom In (or especially both) — is in use. Like I said, it's a "burst damage" class. Also, many aspects of each VFX power (well, Slow and Mach Speed, anyways) are really more for puzzle-solving than combat, though even those have combat applications against specific enemies. The VFX powers already required a lot of bending to translate them from fast-paced 2-D real-time combat (beat-'em-up) to tactical grid-based turn-based combat (RPG).
:::Also, if the problem is the Viewtiful Warrior being overpowered, I can't just add Dramatic Attacks in. What should I tone down or remove in exchange? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:37, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::: The big problem with VFX right now is that you add your Cha to attack and damage waaay waay too much. Usually adding it once is fine and do a good damage boost, it become really powerful at twice and completely bonkers beyond that. Me and a friend did some calculation and it could easily kill many CR 20 enemies at level 7. There way to increase damage in VFX without making it too strong, but first some trimming must be done on the abilities themselves. As an exercise trim each VFX to what you think should be the absolute minimum, this version will not be final it will be our working ground. Once that is settled we will work our way back up, adding extra abilities and the like. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 22:55, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::The only thing I can think of to take out is the "increase damage of all attacks not affecting the Viewtiful Warrior and his allies" clause. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 02:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::: One example would be be to make the VFX Slow effect simply like slow instead of super slow (slow is a 3rd level spell and this superslow seem like a 5th level spell, additionally it affect all creatures save you (kinda) with no save, does it sound like a 1st character should have so much power?). --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 02:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::No, but at the same time, I don't want to take it out either. Maybe the slow effect could become more powerful as levels are gained, eventually capping about where it is now. ...Actually, that sounds pretty good. Will try to implement in the morning; past my bedtime. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 03:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::All right, done. Most of the Viewtiful Warrior's class features have been delayed, and VFX Slow in particular has had its effects stretched out so that it doesn't reach full power until level 20. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 00:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
