255
edits
Changes
Added rating.
== Ratings ==
{{Rating |rater=Enigma
|rating=favor
|reason=A very cool and detailed spell
}}
{{Rating |rater=Ghostwheel
|rating=oppose
|reason=Sorry, but this spell is just not very workable. Even Eiji's suggested fixes can't make this good, and even then I still struggle to figure out whether this spell is super weak or stupid strong.
When you need immediate crowd control, this spell pales in comparison to, say, [[SRD:Hold Person|''hold person'' ]] or [[SRD:Black Tentacles|''black tentacles'']], which can instantly stop a creature from moving or casting spells. On the other hand, if you were to cast this in the fucking Acropolis people will be getting dashed against Doric columns for [[SRD:Disintegrate|''disintegrate'']]-tier damage left and right, and that's not something a 5th -level spell should be capable of doing under any circumstance.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Dragonexx
:::::You're a touch late. I've already changed the spell a bit according to Eiji-kun's suggestions, and it's now a bit simpler than it was... but I didn't follow Eiji's suggestions verbatim. Let me explain why. I refuse to take out the [[SRD:Jump Skill|Jump]] check, since it logically ''should'' be at least theoretically possible to jump over ''any'' wall that's not attached to a ceiling if you're good enough at jumping. (In practice, it might not be possible if you can't fit in the space between the wall and the ceiling, assuming that there ''is'' a ceiling, but that's the sort of environmentally-dependent situation that should be left for the DM to worry about.) Likewise, the ring should grow in height as your caster level increases to make jumping over the wall non-trivial at higher levels. Furthermore, the save for being crushed by the ring will remain a Fortitude save because Fortitude is all about withstanding physical trauma, and really, quick reflexes can't help you when you don't have enough room to move. Let's say you literally get trapped between the ''holy hold'' wall and some other walls, so that you ''can't'' run out of the way. In that scenario, a Reflex save can't help you; to prevent saving throw denial, I made Fortitude the default for when you get crushed. Likewise, the duration has to be long enough to carry the subject to prison and lock them up; ''holy hold''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s '''purpose''' is detaining people. I did, however, make the duration much shorter than it was before. And, of course, I didn't take out the ''time stop'' combo, as I came up with this spell ''specifically'' as something that would be made better by ''time stop''. I did, however, weaken the interaction a bit, namely changing it so that creatures subjected to ''time stop'' take a −4 penalty on their save against ''holy hold'' instead of automatically failing. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 21:06, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
::::::The fact that you can jump over things is common sense, to be honest. I've had my characters jump over walls of force and other barriers before whenever it was plausible or when I was given the chance. If you leave a bunch of PCs with no way out of a situation except by jumping on stuff, trust me, they'll jump without you having to point it out. That said, vertical jump distance is still hard-capped by core to 8 feet for medium creatures if I recall correctly, from what I can tell, so making the ring increase in height without limit may be problematic nonetheless. Like I said, the spell is super-weak in terms of immediate effect, and stupid-strong under certain conditions, and this overhaul doesn't change that. --[[User:Sulacu|Sulacu]] ([[User talk:Sulacu|talk]]) 21:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
:::::::It wasn't meant to change it. This spell was never meant to be strong in terms of its immediate effect, and make up for it by working wonders when used in situations ideally suited to it (like the combination with [[SRD:Time Stop|''time stop'']]; that was meant to be its major saving grace from the get-go).
:::::::No, really. This spell was ''designed'' to be compatible with ''time stop''. That's the whole reason it operates on a time delay — to work around ''time stop''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s "other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks" limitation. Basically, using ''holy hold'' with ''time stop'' works on the same principle as [[SRD:Delayed Blast Fireball|''delayed blast fireball'']] + ''time stop''; you use the frozen time to set up a nigh-inescapable trap. The problem, of course, is that you never know how long your ''time stop'' will last; if your delayed effect triggers before your ''time stop'' wears off, it's completely ineffectual, due to the "other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks" clause, while if it triggers 1 or more rounds after your ''time stop'' wears off, your enemies get to react and the trap is possibly all for naught. But if the effect triggers ''right '''after''''' your ''time stop'' wears off, your enemies are so very, ''very'' screwed. And unlike ''delayed blast fireball'', ''holy hold''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s delay isn't adjustable, so you need quite a bit of luck to pull it off. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 21:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
