Talk:Warlock's Curse (3.5e Invocation)

Pretty Insane

This is far far better than bestow curse, especially since it applies to saving throws. This is pretty much Dire Hexblade curse but with lower duration, one target at a time, longer action to use and 'At Will. There not even a save immunity clause. This need restructuring, because right now it unbelievably strong. --Leziad (talk) 15:07, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

Well, what would you suggest? It's based off of the core mechanic of the Scourge Warlock in the Neverwinter MMO; In that game, Cursed targets take 20% more damage; If you curse more than one target, the damage bonus is divided between them, and most all of the other skills do extra stuff against a Cursed target, either consuming the curse or just being boosted by it.

Reducing the penalty to -3 is workable (The only reason I didn't, though, was 3 is very hard to divide into two whole numbers when you curse two targets, and simply having it apply a -2 penalty against both targets would make it more powerful than when used against a single target or three targets), and having the penalty only apply against the attacks and abilities the Warlock who cursed them. Having the first invocation or Eldritch Blast used against the target consume the curse but receive a +1 to +3 boost to effective Warlock level (Thus increasing EB damage and such) makes sense.

Anyway, lemme know what your suggestions are. Zhenra-Khal (talk) 15:22, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

Alright, so, looking at Bestow Curse, it's permanent and can be used by character level 5. Since this is a Lesser invocation, is can't be chosen until a level later, but anyway. The range is 60ft as opposed to Touch, and the penalties are -6 as opposed to -4. So, I've edited this invocation and well, have a look. Zhenra-Khal (talk) 15:38, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

--Leziad (talk) 21:08, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

If you want to keep the mechanics the same, a very simple solution is to up the balance range to VH instead of H. --Ghostwheel (talk) 16:46, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

@Ghostwheel: 'Tis true. Beyond that, what is your opinion on this invocation overall? Zhenra-Khal (talk) 16:49, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

Nah, just shuffling it to VH is a bad idea. While bestow curse is bad, it also a standard action touch and the penalties are to one thing. If someone fail against bestow curse they will take a blow, but they are not doomed. If they fail against this they are royally screwed, they lose their defense and offense and might as well just be dead. Honestly I would say either reduce the penalty (by at least half to -3) or maybe just apply a miss chance on all your attacks and a reverse miss chance on your side. If you insist on keeping a move action then it definitely need to be on the weaker side, cause I run VH games and I would not allow this invocation in it current state. It simply too efficient, deadly and quick with no daily limit and it can spammed at target that saved. Since it a move it can be even spammed twice per round. This is not an acceptable level of power. --Leziad (talk) 18:12, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

Um? This only applies one of the functions of Bestow Curse, and while it's spammable, has a better range and is a bit improved, it's not very versatile and does very little the spell doesn't do. Zhenra-Khal (talk) 18:32, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

I like the concept overall. However keep in mind that since the penalty applies to everything it essentially a dire hexblade's curse. Unless I misread and it only applies to one, it extremely potent. Someone with -6 AC will most likely get hit all the time (especially -6 to touch AC against your blasts) and -6 to save mean they are fucked against any other effects. The -6 to Attack will mean they will have trouble hitting, especially after the first iterative attack. This is essentially a -12 penalty on all ability scores. --Leziad (talk) 20:05, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

Indeed, BUT it's barely more powerful than Bestow Curse. I just took the "power at the cost of versatility" approach to Bestow Curse, more or less. On the subject... What do you think of these? Zhenra-Khal (talk) 20:19, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

It is quite more powerful than bestow curse, duration may be weaker but the heightened action economy use and greatly increase potency more than make up for it. Never mind that it range match the usual eldritch blast range. I would personally reduce the bonus to a -3, even if it more annoying to divide. Also I will check it out and let you know. --Leziad (talk) 21:08, 3 May 2017 (MDT)

(RESET INDENT) Bestow Curse can apply one of the following effects:

• A -6 penalty to an ability score
• A -4 penalty on attack rolls, save, skill checks and ability checks
• Or, each turn, the target has a 50% chance to do nothing instead of act normally.

Permanently.

I have edited that it can only be used once per round, either as a move action (To curse 1 target) or as a full-round action (To curse up to 3 targets that are within 30 feet of each other).

I can always make this a Tyrannical Curse, moving it to Greater (6th), and make a -3 max version for Lesser. Zhenra-Khal (talk) 04:03, 4 May 2017 (MDT)

I understand it permanent and very powerful, but keep in mind that in the context of a combat it essentially the same. The problem I have is the action and range, which make it superior to Curse of Despair, and curse of despair is one of the best out there. So you have a more potent curse of desapir on one aspect, but gave it a close-medium range, no touch attack required and using it does not disrupt your blasting/invoking. I say reduce it to -3, make it a swift action (which is actually a nerf from a move action, I will explain why as well) and add a 5 round immunity cooldown. Honestly I don't dislike the original idea of +20% damage on a failed save as well.

So why is a move action such a big deal? Well offensive abilities are not typically keyed to move. If you have a move action ability it will be a buff, a transformation or a rush in my experience. In a round a warlock with this invocation can do: an eldritch blast, a warlock's curse and a quickened invocation. Because of it range you won't need to move very often, so you should be throwing a curse out every round as well as any other invocations you have. If it a swift you need to choose between throwing a curse, or use any other swift invocation (including quickened ones), additionally if you used an immediate last round you don't get a swift. --Leziad (talk) 13:19, 4 May 2017 (MDT)

Chiming in. Gotta agree, this is pretty hardcore. Maybe as a Greater Invocation, but not as a Lesser. The -6 to everything important is pretty hardcore, and there's not really incentive to split it up: you're better off keeping -6 and then follow it up with a blast with +6d6 damage, and repeat. Speaking of which that secondary effect is weird and seems stapled on. Don't forget too, when comparing to Bestow Curse, that range of touch really hurts Bestow Curse for casters. Giving it range is also a boost. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 19:08, 4 May 2017 (MDT)

(EDIT) "Move action", holy crap lol wat. And I figured you had a True Strike action cost going on here. Lol no. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 19:12, 4 May 2017 (MDT)

Okay, I'll just. Edit it or take it down or something tomorrow. Too tired, can barely type. Zhenra-Khal (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2017 (MDT)

It okay man, don't stress over this. There is no need to rush and we can find a good solution together. There a reason I didn't hatebomb this. I really do like the concept. --Leziad (talk) 22:31, 4 May 2017 (MDT)

Suggestion

I just an an idea, what if your invert it? So you curse one target it take a -1 penalty, you curse two and both take -2 and when you curse three they all take a -3. Then for the discharge effect, you may instead of a boosted CL have all cursed target be effected by the Invocation? --Leziad (talk) 22:33, 4 May 2017 (MDT)