Latest revision as of 13:30, 13 January 2014

Organizations[edit]

Much needed cleaning/organizing was performed, some things may appear incomplete. --Snafusam (talk) 13:30, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Balance[edit]

after removing one ability entirely im now stuck with the question is it balanced (yes i realize it's massive superiority vs undead)... Snafusam (talk) May 19, 2013 09:01(PDT)

I can do a review if you wish so, I did not read the class yet but I can point any issues (and potential issues) as well as providing ways to fix them. --Leziad (talk) 14:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

how do you do a review? i was just about to make a pair of level 20's and have them fight each-other. Snafusam (talk) May 21, 2013 04:42(PDT)

Might not be the best way, i`l just look at it in an objective and critical way, compare it to similar classes and just post the result. --Leziad (talk) 05:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention that pitting it against a True Necromancer puts it in a situation where, to me, it has an obvious advantage. But yeah, the idea of having it fight other things to see what happened was kind of abandoned with the Same Game Test. - TG Cid (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

your right, this would have an obvious advantage... The limitations of 'hydrokinesis' are implied and stated in some places however, left vaguely open so as X-DM can limit it themselves to better fit X-campaign/player. the source which i have based this hydrokinesis never used it to 'potential' because of self-restraint which though some players have, most dont... as for "drown the whole world" I already made this impossible with rates of generation the world has countless ways of dealing with excess water without magic (rivers, lakes, oceans) adding magic into the equation makes this increasingly impossible however flooding a tunnel or water-way would be possible, if the dm doesn't create a water-drain (most tunnles do, its just another one of those little things the DM will have to think about when making his campaign or adding it in on the fly once said character gains X power.)

please give it a run-through and let me know what your thoughts are, hope it's not too much. Snafusam (talk) May 23, 2013 02:40(PDT)

Divine Metamagic[edit]

for this class, the biggest concern for me right off the bat is how extra turning attempts relate to Divine Metamagic and the cheesy things that the Cleric gets access to. - TG Cid (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I have taken a look at the Divine Metamagic and either 1. Don't understand it enough or 2. believe it's limited enough the double turning won't effect it enough.

Divine Metamagic (hereafter abbreviated as DMM) allows you to use turning attempts as metamagic levels. This allows you to add levels past level 9, provided you have enough turning attempts, and thus do all the cheesy things that clerics do (like persist divine power every day). So more turning attempts equals more metamagic abuse, which the cleric already gets plenty and does not need more of. That's at least the general gist of it, I believe. For the whole class in general, I am in favor of Prestige Classes being as short as possible. If it works effectively in five levels, there is no reason to extend it to ten, especially when in my experience most "high level" games are around level 14 or so and every level becomes precious. Having to throw more than five levels into any one PrC doesn't sit well with me. For more on this, I made a specific section below - TG Cid (talk) 00:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

just looked up this trick and it's the first I've heard of it, though i agree it is very powerful, there are many (VERY MANY) ways for a DM to counteract such things. however i agree with the worry and am currently trying to find a nice way to word a limitation. however these bonus turnings cannot be used for Divine Metamagic.?? i agree that shorter classes are easier for DM/players, do you think i should compress this class into a 5-level prestige? (do you really have an average "high level" of 14? my campaign went from level 1 to 55+ before i recently HAD to kill the entire campaign for a restart (level 3).) Snafusam (talk) May 24, 2013 19:28(PDT)

Oh no you don't. Don't even try and Oberoni this argument. A GM can shut down anything - this is no indication of whether it is balanced or not. - MisterSinister (talk) 02:16, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I just had to look up "oberoni"... many (VERY MANY) ways for a DM to counteract such things are all legal without "Rule 0". Snafusam (talk) May 31, 2013 19:23(PDT)

Hydrokinesis[edit]

As for this class, Limitations on hydrokinesis would probably also be good (they seem to be implied, but not specifically stated) to prevent the purifier from drowning the whole world instantaneously (which, ironically, would not kill all the undead in the world). - TG Cid (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

flooding1[edit]

I have Mydia that I know right off the bat would never think of attempting to flood a dungeon (simply unable... not unwilling.) and Dargon that are capable wouldn't hesitate for a second to try, another Roscoe that actually wouldn't do it out of principle, unless required, and if any of said players were to try I would make my player try and reason it (for alignment purposes at least), otherwise it it flow's into the ocean/lake/river and nothing changes, flash flood maybe, but not drown the world. if they were to keep trying it >>Link<<, then Pelor might take offense and demand the incompetent fool be decapitated DOWN COMES THE ANGELS! Snafusam (talk) May 23, 2013 02:40(PDT)

That's a terrible way to try to justify sharing this ability with potential parties everywhere.

Well, assuming that they can only create one 30-ft radius sphere's-worth of water per round, that's only 0.0000001 cubic kilometers per round. Doubling the volume of the Earth's oceans would take 2,399,100,000 years.

Filling a dungeon, however, would take a couple of minutes unless it had a Peter Jackson LotR-style interior. If that's not using the ability as intended, I don't know what is. --Foxwarrior (talk) 16:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

keep in mind, flooding dungeons has always been an option for adventurers, it simply needs the right spells or situation this is no different.

keep in mind the DND oceans usually connect to the elemental plane of water (in a variety of ways) meaning that they can't really "overflow"...

(I don't get the Peter Jackson LotR-style reference. If its to the drain in the helms deep wall, then yes that's exactly what this means.) the method I'm wanting to use to avoid having a dungeon flooded is having a natural cavern beneath it, connected to the underdark you say? Snafusam (talk) May 23, 2013 15:06(PDT)

new edits make flooding much longer to achieve. Snafusam (talk) June 03, 2013 08:20(PDT)

Flood attempt experiment[edit]

Lets see how long it would take to flood an Water-tight dungeon with --------- water per 6 seconds (1 round). This would effectively force any air-breathing creature to drown (no fight experience) or be forced out of the dungeons nearest entrance (que fight) destroying any fire/water weak items(scrolls/books/important documents)

1. for my first dungeon I had my level 1 players(playing Adnd) go into a small cave which turned out to be much bigger than expected (as an inexperienced DM at the time I wound up having divine intervention save them many times) the cave was drawn out on a grid sheet and measured by 10 square feet per block, making my first dungeon cave 20x40 blocks x10 square feet. so that's 8,000 square feet.

2. an later dungeon was called the "sunder canyon" it was more or less a thin yet long canyon with many small holes in the sides which monsters made their homes, the players job was to stand in the center, draw out all the monsters and survive while the local town guard rained down arrows/spells. it's size was 400 feet across and 25000 feet long at a depth of 5000 feet. ------------- (not including evaporation/creatures drinking or time to sleep/live so you might as well double that, and continue to laugh when they die of old age)...

3. an laberynth, this was a simple maze which took 1 sheet of grid paper giving each square 5 feet. how long did it take to flood? irrelevant, it was already set-up for water-drainage to the ocean.

so, though an adventurer could potentially flood many dungeons (if water-tight...) it doesn't kill things that don't breath and there are places (sealed/hidden doors) that won't be simply flash flooded and there are many spells (wall of fire!) which would prevent water-flooding... Snafusam (talk) May 23, 2013 19:10(PDT)

Suggestions[edit]

I have a suggestion for the turning. Remove turning attempts per day entirely; essentially, let them do it at will. Compared to the abuse of DMM spamming, turn undead unlimited times per day is no big deal, since the level that you really need to be to destroy things is very, very much above what most players will achieve unless the enemies are so much weaker that the PC's would crap on them anyway. It completely nullifies DMM as an option, too, which is a good thing. - TG Cid (talk) 13:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Moves[edit]

All sorted. No worries on the weirdness, it takes time to get this wiki stuff down. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 04:23, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-== Comments ==
+=Organizations=
+Much needed cleaning/organizing was performed, some things may appear incomplete. --[[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) 13:30, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
+== Balance ==
 after removing one ability entirely im now stuck with the question is it balanced (yes i realize it's massive superiority vs undead)... [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 19, 2013 09:01(PDT)
@@ Line 5: / Line 9: @@
 : I can do a review if you wish so, I did not read the class yet but I can point any issues (and potential issues) as well as providing ways to fix them. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 14:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
-:: how do you do a review? i was just about to make a pair of level 20's and have them fight each-other. [[:Purifier (3.5e Prestige Class)|Purifier]] vs [http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/True_Necromancer_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29 | True Necromancer] [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 21, 2013 04:42(PDT)
+:: how do you do a review? i was just about to make a pair of level 20's and have them fight each-other. [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 21, 2013 04:42(PDT)
 ::: Might not be the best way, i`l just look at it in an objective and critical way, compare it to similar classes and just post the result. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 05:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
-::::Not to mention that pitting it against a True Necromancer puts it in a situation where, to me, it has an obvious advantage. But yeah, the idea of having it fight other things to see what happened was kind of abandoned with the [[Dungeons and Dragons Wiki:The Same Game Test|Same Game Test]]. As for this class, the biggest concern for me right off the bat is how extra turning attempts relate to Divine Metamagic and the cheesy things that the Cleric gets access to. Limitations on hydrokinesis would probably also be good (they seem to be implied, but not specifically stated) to prevent the purifier from drowning the whole world instantaneously (which, ironically, would not kill all the undead in the world). - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 17:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
+::::Not to mention that pitting it against a True Necromancer puts it in a situation where, to me, it has an obvious advantage. But yeah, the idea of having it fight other things to see what happened was kind of abandoned with the [[Dungeons and Dragons Wiki:The Same Game Test|Same Game Test]]. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 17:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
-::::: your right, this would have an obvious advantage... I have taken a look at the Divine Metamagic and either 1. Don't understand it enough or 2. believe it's limited enough the ''double turning'' won't effect it enough. the limitations of 'hydrokinesis' are implied and stated in some places however, left vaguely open so as X-DM can limit it themselves to better fit X-campaign/player. the source which i have based this ''hydrokinesis'' never used it to 'potential' because of self-restraint which though some players have, most dont... as for "drown the whole world" I already made this impossible with ''rates of generation'' the world has countless ways of dealing with excess water without magic (rivers, lakes, oceans) adding magic into the equation makes this increasingly impossible however flooding a tunnel or water-way would be possible, if the dm doesn't create a water-drain (most tunnles do, its just another one of those little things the DM will have to think about when making his campaign or adding it in on the fly once said character gains X power.)
+::::: your right, this would have an obvious advantage... The limitations of 'hydrokinesis' are implied and stated in some places however, left vaguely open so as X-DM can limit it themselves to better fit X-campaign/player. the source which i have based this ''hydrokinesis'' never used it to 'potential' because of self-restraint which though some players have, most dont... as for "drown the whole world" I already made this impossible with ''rates of generation'' the world has countless ways of dealing with excess water without magic (rivers, lakes, oceans) adding magic into the equation makes this increasingly impossible however flooding a tunnel or water-way would be possible, if the dm doesn't create a water-drain (most tunnles do, its just another one of those little things the DM will have to think about when making his campaign or adding it in on the fly once said character gains X power.)
 please give it a run-through and let me know what your thoughts are, hope it's not too much. [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 23, 2013 02:40(PDT)
-::::::Divine Metamagic (hereafter abbreviated as DMM) allows you to use turning attempts as metamagic levels. This allows you to add levels past level 9, provided you have enough turning attempts, and thus do all the cheesy things that clerics do (like persist ''divine power'' every day). So more turning attempts equals more metamagic abuse, which the cleric already gets plenty and does not need more of. That's at least the general gist of it, I believe. For the whole class in general, I am in favor of Prestige Classes being as short as possible. If it works effectively in five levels, there is no reason to extend it to ten, especially when in my experience most "high level" games are around level 14 or so and every level becomes precious. Having to throw more than five levels into any one PrC doesn't sit well with me. For more on this, I made a specific section below - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 00:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
+== Divine Metamagic ==
+for this class, the biggest concern for me right off the bat is how extra turning attempts relate to Divine Metamagic and the cheesy things that the Cleric gets access to. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 17:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
+:I have taken a look at the Divine Metamagic and either 1. Don't understand it enough or 2. believe it's limited enough the ''double turning'' won't effect it enough.
+::Divine Metamagic (hereafter abbreviated as DMM) allows you to use turning attempts as metamagic levels. This allows you to add levels past level 9, provided you have enough turning attempts, and thus do all the cheesy things that clerics do (like persist ''divine power'' every day). So more turning attempts equals more metamagic abuse, which the cleric already gets plenty and does not need more of. That's at least the general gist of it, I believe. For the whole class in general, I am in favor of Prestige Classes being as short as possible. If it works effectively in five levels, there is no reason to extend it to ten, especially when in my experience most "high level" games are around level 14 or so and every level becomes precious. Having to throw more than five levels into any one PrC doesn't sit well with me. For more on this, I made a specific section below - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 00:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
-:::::::just looked up this trick and it's the first I've heard of it, though i agree it is very powerful, there are many (VERY MANY) ways for a DM to counteract such things. however i agree with the worry and am currently trying to find a nice way to word a limitation. ''however these bonus turnings cannot be used for Divine Metamagic.''??  i agree that shorter classes are easier for DM/players, do you think i '''should''' compress this class into a 5-level prestige? (do you really have an average "high level" of 14? my campaign went from level 1 to 55+ before i recently HAD to kill the entire campaign for a restart (level 3).) [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 24, 2013 19:28(PDT)
+:::just looked up this trick and it's the first I've heard of it, though i agree it is very powerful, there are many (VERY MANY) ways for a DM to counteract such things. however i agree with the worry and am currently trying to find a nice way to word a limitation. ''however these bonus turnings cannot be used for Divine Metamagic.''??  i agree that shorter classes are easier for DM/players, do you think i '''should''' compress this class into a 5-level prestige? (do you really have an average "high level" of 14? my campaign went from level 1 to 55+ before i recently HAD to kill the entire campaign for a restart (level 3).) [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 24, 2013 19:28(PDT)
 Oh no you don't. Don't even ''try'' and Oberoni this argument. A GM can shut down ''anything'' - this is no indication of whether it is balanced or not. - [[User:MisterSinister|MisterSinister]] ([[User talk:MisterSinister|talk]]) 02:16, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
-:I just had to look up "oberoni"... '''many (VERY MANY) ways for a DM to counteract such things''' are all legal without "Rule 0".
+:I just had to look up "oberoni"... '''many (VERY MANY) ways for a DM to counteract such things''' are all legal without "Rule 0". [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 31, 2013 19:23(PDT)
-:That's not what I'm doing. this class has changed so far from what it was supposed to be, I don't even want to play the characters I made it for! I'm THAT sick of all the changes I've made to this class trying to make it acceptable for everybody. I'm through with it, goodbye, next project. [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 31, 2013 19:23(PDT)
+== Hydrokinesis ==
+As for this class, Limitations on hydrokinesis would probably also be good (they seem to be implied, but not specifically stated) to prevent the purifier from drowning the whole world instantaneously (which, ironically, would not kill all the undead in the world). - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 17:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
-== flooding continued ==
+== flooding1 ==
-I have [http://www.obsidianportal.com/profile/Piccolomre| player-P] that I know right off the bat would never think of attempting to flood a dungeon (simply unable... not unwilling.) and [http://www.obsidianportal.com/profile/Rayce| player-R] that are capable wouldn't hesitate for a second to try, another [http://www.obsidianportal.com/profile/KyleS| player-K] that actually wouldn't do it out of principle, unless required, and if any of said players were to try I would make my player try and reason it (for alignment purposes at least), otherwise it it flow's into the ocean/lake/river and nothing changes, flash flood maybe, but not drown the world. if they were to keep trying it ([http://www.obsidianportal.com/profile/Synyster| Player-S]) then Pelor might take offense and the incompetent fool be decapitated ''DOWN COMES THE ANGELS!'' following a ban of said player playing said type of charactor... (Player-R isn't allowed to be undead anymore and Player-S is pushing hard for some kind of limitation.) [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 23, 2013 02:40(PDT)
+I have ''Mydia'' that I know right off the bat would never think of attempting to flood a dungeon (simply unable... not unwilling.) and ''Dargon'' that are capable wouldn't hesitate for a second to try, another ''Roscoe'' that actually wouldn't do it out of principle, unless required, and if any of said players were to try I would make my player try and reason it (for alignment purposes at least), otherwise it it flow's into the ocean/lake/river and nothing changes, flash flood maybe, but not drown the world. if they were to keep trying it >>''Link''<<, then Pelor might take offense and demand the incompetent fool be decapitated ''DOWN COMES THE ANGELS!'' [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 23, 2013 02:40(PDT)
 :That's a terrible way to try to justify sharing this ability with potential parties everywhere.
@@ Line 35: / Line 48: @@
 ::keep in mind the DND oceans usually connect to the elemental plane of water (in a variety of ways) meaning that they can't really "overflow"...
 ::(I don't get the ''Peter Jackson LotR-style'' reference. If its to the drain in the helms deep wall, then yes that's exactly what this means.) the method I'm wanting to use to avoid having a dungeon flooded is having a natural cavern beneath it, connected to the underdark you say? [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 23, 2013 15:06(PDT)
+new edits make flooding much longer to achieve. [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) June 03, 2013 08:20(PDT)
 == Flood attempt experiment ==
-Lets see how long it would take to flood an '''Water-tight''' dungeon with 30'radius (generation max area) of water per 6 seconds (1 round). This would effectively force any air-breathing creature to drown (no fight experience) or be forced out of the dungeons nearest entrance (que fight) destroying any fire/water weak items(scrolls/books/important documents)
-. for my first dungeon I had my level 1 players(playing Adnd) go into a small cave which turned out to be much bigger than expected (as an inexperienced DM at the time I wound up having divine intervention save them many times) the cave was drawn out on a grid sheet and measured by 10 square feet per block, making my first dungeon cave 20x40 blocks x10 square feet. so that's 8,000 square feet. filling the 3770 cubic feet at a time would take (133 rounds) 13 minutes...
+Lets see how long it would take to flood an '''Water-tight''' dungeon with --------- water per 6 seconds (1 round). This would effectively force any air-breathing creature to drown (no fight experience) or be forced out of the dungeons nearest entrance (que fight) destroying any fire/water weak items(scrolls/books/important documents)
+. for my first dungeon I had my level 1 players(playing Adnd) go into a small cave which turned out to be much bigger than expected (as an inexperienced DM at the time I wound up having divine intervention save them many times) the cave was drawn out on a grid sheet and measured by 10 square feet per block, making my first dungeon cave 20x40 blocks x10 square feet. so that's 8,000 square feet.
-. an later dungeon was called the "sunder canyon" it was more or less a thin yet long canyon with many small holes in the sides which monsters made their homes, the players job was to stand in the center, draw out all the monsters and survive while the local town guard rained down arrows/spells. it's size was 400 feet across and 25000 feet long at a depth of 5000 feet. so, 50,000,000,000 feet squared would take 2758 years to flood this canyon (not including evaporation/creatures drinking or time to sleep/live so you might as well double that, and continue to laugh when they die of old age)...
+. an later dungeon was called the "sunder canyon" it was more or less a thin yet long canyon with many small holes in the sides which monsters made their homes, the players job was to stand in the center, draw out all the monsters and survive while the local town guard rained down arrows/spells. it's size was 400 feet across and 25000 feet long at a depth of 5000 feet. ------------- (not including evaporation/creatures drinking or time to sleep/live so you might as well double that, and continue to laugh when they die of old age)...
-. an laberynth, this was a simple maze i made which took 1 sheet of grid paper giving each square 5 feet, 43x33x5=7095/30= 23.6 minutes (lucky me it was already setup for water-drainage...)
+. an laberynth, this was a simple maze which took 1 sheet of grid paper giving each square 5 feet. how long did it take to flood? irrelevant, it was already set-up for water-drainage to the ocean.
 so, though an adventurer could potentially flood many dungeons (if water-tight...) it doesn't kill things that don't breath and there are places (sealed/hidden doors) that won't be simply flash flooded and there are many spells (wall of fire!) which would prevent water-flooding... [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 23, 2013 19:10(PDT)
-:10 square feet per block? Do you mean that the blocks were ~3 feet wide, or did you mean to say 10 foot square blocks (100 square feet)? Assuming the latter, that's actually 40,000 square feet. It's not 40000 /30; it's a 30 foot radius sphere. A 30 foot radius sphere has a volume of almost exactly 3770 cubic feet, which means you can fill this cave at a rate of depth increase of 3770/40000 = 0.09 feet per round. So you can fill it to a depth of 6 feet (head height) in 6 minutes and 40 seconds.
-:Your canyon volume calculation was correct, but your sphere calculation still wasn't, so it would only be 921 days. --[[Special:Contributions/174.61.170.65|174.61.170.65]] 04:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
-:: the "block" on grid paper = square... dnd calculates one "square" as 5 foot radius, on my DM-map, i made it 10 feet squared for each square on the DM-map. Where are you getting the calculation for 3770 cubic feet, I'm not getting any number near that. I'm not sure where you started using 'cubic feet' as it has an extra dimension in it's calculations but try and stick with feet squared, I've kept all the calculations to feet squared for this reason. it's presumed that any living creature will attempt to swim, so 6 feet won't cut it. [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 23, 2013 21:46(PDT)
-:::Spheres are three dimensional; putting them in units of anything other than cubic feet is weird.
-:::The volume of a sphere is (4/3)πr³. --[[Special:Contributions/70.199.243.111|70.199.243.111]] 18:15, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
-::::yes a sphere is three dimensional, where does "sphere" come into consideration (the above topic said "sphere" after "radius" which is how it would appear if the purifier were to surround herself with water, however because the purpose is mass-creation it would not be held in place thus it would not actually gain the sphere appearance/quality.)? perhaps it is weird but either way, that's what dnd3.5 uses 99% of the time (to my knowledge).
-:::: the ability states ''Creation: Generate as much water as desired, within 30 feet of self, how it appears can be chosen (even direction traveling when created) Keep in mind, that destruction/evaporation can be achieved as well, at the same rate.'' and continues to state a number of example generation effects. the above topic realized the 30 feet can be any direction (spherical) however try for a second to imagine how creating water like that would look... a giant water-droplet that's leaking? or an exploding light-bubble? then explain it to the DM/player... [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 24, 2013 15:26(PDT)
 ==Suggestions==
-As I mentioned above, this is one of those cases where less is more as far as levels are concerned. I think this could work as a five-level PrC, which will dictate pretty much all of the suggestions I make below.
-*You already have ''create water'' as a spell courtesy of the bonus domain. I don't feel like giving it as an SLA really does anything for the class, and it also just clogs up the 1st level. For the sake of my five-level suggestion, I am suggesting that it be purged. On that note, what happens to your bonus domain if you already have the Good and Water domain? A probably rare occurrence, to be sure, but I think for the sake of fairness you should get a different bonus domain should it happen.
-*''Geyser'' is quite a problematic spell to give, seeing as how the dedicated enemies of the purifier are immune to non-lethal damage in the first place. Kind of a disconnect between mechanics and theme, I think, but not necessarily all bad since it means you aren't totally shoehorned into an undead fighter. That said, I think the spell itself could be improved upon.
-*Purifying Prowess is quite a handful; an effective increase in caster level synergizes very strongly with ''blasphemy'' and those similar spells that will flat out kill (or at least daze/debilitate) anything with less HD than your caster level, with no save. I would try something else there and scrap that bit, since combined with other effective caster level boosters it amounts to lots of ''blasphemy'' abuse.
-I will continue to update this as time allows. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 00:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
-:agreed with the create water, and removed it. added an exception for the case of a purifier having both domains. ''Geyser'' is a very limited spell i agree it needs buffing (just don't know how to give it without making it too much, considering removing it from class too.), its purpose on this class is to give 'some' power against non-undead, and sense it's non-lethal it won't kill the living. The ''Zone of consecration'' turns the ''geyser'' into holy water meaning it will deal full damage vs undead. ''blasphemy'' is already abused easily, this is no different. thank you for your help ;D [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 24, 2013 19:13(PDT)
-::While it's true that ''blasphemy'' is already quite easily abused, I think this is even more cause to '''not''' give a flat increase in caster level. The fact that something already takes place does not create precedent to exacerbate the problem, in my opinion. It is just encouraging clerics to win the entire game for their team outright, which isn't good for anyone concerned. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 16:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
-::: hmmm so... completely avoid giving such an ability to directly avoid a common abuse of 2 spells (''blasphemy and holy word'')? of which one is currently an spell-like ability @ level 10 which controversy suggests that the bonus was given intentionally (same as the true necromancer which this was made to oppose.)... as much as i understand the concern, i have to point out the potential danger of such spells, good clerics using ''holy word'' too much risk losing their gods favor and risk killing team-mates (had both happen before). evil clerics abusing blasphemy tend to attract the attention of stronger creatures increasing risk however easier it may be to kill smaller creatures... [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 26, 2013 02:47(PDT)
-::::It only risks killing teammates if they are of a different alignment, of course. This can be easily avoided by having a party that is all of the same alignment, and the cleric naturally has other options as his disposal beyond those four spells. Even so, the amount of creatures that quartet alone can easily dispatch is quite high, any of the supposed drawbacks you have alluded to are not mechanically written and thus not universally applicable. If the DM imposes such a control, that is one thing, but that largely hinges on the game in which this is taking place. Because the caster level increase is the universality here, the best option is to get rid of it entirely, since the cleric doesn't need more help being a god.
-::::As I stated previously, I am in favor of this five level crunch, but one drawback is that it magnifies the rate of the flat caster level increase. One of the advantages of shorter PrC's and PrC's in general is the ability to base things off of the player's character or caster level in order to reduce the individual investment necessary in each level of the Prestige Class. I'm not necessarily recommending that you do this in the case of the caster level increase (I still think this should just go) but it does allow you more flexibility.
 ::::I have a suggestion for the turning. Remove turning attempts per day entirely; essentially, let them do it at will. Compared to the abuse of DMM spamming, turn undead unlimited times per day is no big deal, since the level that you really need to be to destroy things is very, very much above what most players will achieve unless the enemies are so much weaker that the PC's would crap on them anyway. It completely nullifies DMM as an option, too, which is a good thing. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 13:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
-I've done a change turning the class into 5-levels, a lot neater, shorter, but not what i was intending it to be :/   it's essentially the same power, just gained quicker at a higher level... from levels 8-13 minimum... (increased the requirements to level 8)... but not sure i like it... thoughts? should I increase the BaB/saves?
+== Moves ==
-:'Now' I'm worried about the ''purifying prowess'' and ''holy word'' at the end feels like its too easily reached, remove ''holy word'' and move the ''zone of concecration'' down shifting everything down one space? [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 26, 2013 03:54(PDT)
-::Okay this change is very risky, your thoughts? I've altered the ''purifying prowess'' ECL to account for multiclassing instead of simply boosting and increased the spells per day gained per level. Removed the ''holy word'' at level 5. [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 26, 2013 18:23(PDT)
-:::I'm not quite sure what you meant by removing ''holy word'', since clerics already have it available as a spell by default. The new Purifying Prowess does indeed make the class more accessible from other classes, especially considering granting some form of full casting to the paladin is what some VH-level remakes seek to achieve anyway. That said, I think the example requires clarification of the spell levels available to a multiclass paladin/purifier as well as the adjusted effective caster level. That is just as significant, if not moreso. You may also need to consider how the class feature interacts with multiple spellcasting classes. If you have access to more than one (say, cleric and paladin), do they stack cumulatively or do the bonus caster levels only apply to one? Does that also make you a double full caster, or only provide full casting when you don't already have such a thing? There are plenty of opportunities for loose interpretation there that may not be desirable. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 13:16, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
-:::: you never noticed that after ''hydrokinesis'' there used to be ''holy word'' as a spell-like ability given at level (use to be 10) 5. made another couple of examples.it says in the ''purifying prowess'' description "classes which do '''not''' naturally grant caster levels" meaning that there is no change to those which '''do''' grant caster levels and it details the adjustment to the paladin...
-when i started this class i simply copied exactly what the true necromancer had (14 level prestige), reversing holy/unholy and making changes from there... at this point, the class is nothing like what i had intended to make. [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 28, 2013 15:06(PDT)
-== Spells per day ==
-It seems that the spell gain per day is like saying for every level you get you get 2 levels. If you were to go 8 cleric/5 purifier you're effectively a level 20 cleric (ignoring all the other bonuses) by level 13. I feel like prestige classes need some form of niche that they fulfil, rather than just being all around better. It just seems way too strong to me. --[[User:Sabre070|Sabre070]] ([[User talk:Sabre070|talk]]) 16:48, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
-:to a point i agree, however recently there have been more and more classes which do both. [[User:Snafusam|Snafusam]] ([[User talk:Snafusam|talk]]) May 28, 2013 15:06(PDT)
-::Seconding the spell advancement being bullshit. There are a few multiclass patch prestige classes that advance two separate casting tracks and there are some justifiably reviled "replacement progression" prestige classes that offer a fast progression because they need to catch up to the old one (Ur-priest, beholder mage), but there aren't any that I am aware of that double down on an existing progression like this. If you want people throwing around True Res and Implosion and Gate and Miracle at CR 12 instead of CR 17, well, you're crazy. It's a terrible plan on a PrC like this and needs to drop to +1 per level, full stop. They can acquire those spells post PrC, at the appropriate level. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  02:58, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
-::Edit - When Cid suggested a 5-level crunched version of this PrC, he almost certainly meant only the abilities and not the spellcasting progression. Since the pile up happened after that compression, it's possible that it was just a misunderstood side effect of that, but it's still an extremely bad one that should be corrected. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  05:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
-== Divine Tide ==
-...Wow. So a Tome Fighter 13 / Cleric 1 / Purifier 6 gets level 20 cleric spellcasting as well as the Tome Fighter goodies... that's pretty incredible. O.o --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 20:49, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
-:Yeah, that class feature more or less makes you gestalt. It doesn't matter if you don't get the non-casting features of your divine spellcaster, because it's a freaking spellcaster; those other features are garnishes, and removing them does ''not'' balance this. --[[User:DanielDraco|DanielDraco]] ([[User talk:DanielDraco|talk]]) 21:00, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
+All sorted. No worries on the weirdness, it takes time to get this wiki stuff down. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  04:23, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Difference between revisions of "User talk:Snafusam/Purifier (3.5e Prestige Class)"

Latest revision as of 13:30, 13 January 2014

Contents

Organizations[edit]

Balance[edit]

Divine Metamagic[edit]

Hydrokinesis[edit]

flooding1[edit]

Flood attempt experiment[edit]

Suggestions[edit]

Moves[edit]

Navigation menu

Personal tools

Namespaces

Variants

Views

More

Search

Navigation

Canon

Homebrew Material

Published Material

Community

Tools

Sister Sites

Social Media