Talk:Mimic (3.5e Class)

Balance

I listed it at rogue, but I can see it now... prepare for the unquantifiability! -- Eiji-kun 10:39, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Playtesting complete, rogue seems right! -- Eiji-kun 10:40, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

A major change!

So I changed the enhancement bonus to a minimum ability bonus because I had a sudden idea. When I did the math the numbers were ok, but effectively they were struggling a bit and still promoted MAD rather than NAD or SAD. So I suddenly thought what if it was a minimum, instead of a boost to what was pre-existing. This is a buff in the sense of bigger numbers, but also a nerf. It's so that if you came in with a race with 50s in every stat, it's no good for you as you won't see any growth. And it shouldn't be too dippable as most probably want a 14 in stats before it starts making a difference. At worst, someone could dip to get rid of penalties (everything is +0 now, with an 11 instead the 8 I had).

It promotes a little SAD. Now you can pick a stat, your favorite, and be ahead of the curve with your 18 in whatever while the rest of your abilities slowly start to catch up. It gives you strength to handle yourself at lower levels.

I would like feedback though, since it was such a major change. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 12:33, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Lets see if I have understood this right;

1) So at level 20 you have in effect 30(+10) in each stat.

2) You can use mimic class ability to remember up to 20 spell levels og spells per day

3) You can use Mimicry to copy a spell cast last round.

= remember Dominate Monster walk into big city/BBG lair, cast it once and mimicry it each round after until all you can see is dominated for at least 20 days?

now substitute Dominate Monster with any spell of your choice.

If I got it right the ballance should be shifted to very high, if mimicry can't be used on one self please make that crystal clear. Wildmage ^Talk 22:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Point 1 is correct. Point 2 is also correct, provided you can provide a spellbook and buy the spells. For point 3, shouldn't be possible as you can't mimic mimicked actions. I think I put that in there...

...

Huh, apparently that important bit of text is NOT in there. Fixing that. The intent, to prevent infinite loops, was to have a thing mimicked only once and they can't mimic their own mimic. At most it can only double an effect. So given that restriction, does it change your feelings?

You do bring up a good point, this might be unquantifiable rather than high. The idea is its power is highly variable on the power of your allies/enemies. I think I will alter it as such. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 23:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I do like the idea qnd the feel of the class, I just fear it is able to combo into broken becaus of the amount of class abilities you can mix as you please while having very high stat mods, the dc of its abilities are gonna be a problem I would think.

a idea could be to have the minimum ability be 10 +1/2 class level, so you still end up 20 in 5 stats at least. Wildmage ^Talk 06:16, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The DCs should be fine. From what I figure, PCs usually hit 34-36 with their main stats at 20th (18 + 5 leveling + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement + maybe 2 from racial). So I should be 4-6 points behind. That said, I'll be playtesting this soon so I suppose I'll know for sure if the numbers need nerfing or are fine as is. Using the wizard as an example, your ally wizard should pump out a DC of 19+13=32 with his Wail of the Banshee, then you follow suit with DC 29. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 07:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

But you can also pump one of your stats (just chose the one that sets the DCs of your favorite spell list, all the while you alwas hits thanks to great str, gets superv AC, best HP bonus, skill +from your atyributtes ar top nice, oh and your saves are ready to be broken just add divine grace with mimic class ability. Wildmage ^Talk 09:29, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The ability to be fairly good at anything is intentional, as you will be mimicking others actions usually (barring 1 or 2 class features you've stolen). If you're not mimicking, you're a not-as-good monk on your own. Let's look at the vanilla mimic on its own before it starts stealing class features. It is likely unarmored to take advantage of it's monk-AC. If we assume the stat at 30 that means 30 Dex, 30 Wis, and +5 enhancements, or AC 35. This is decent, but nothing special at 20th. The AC should be fine here. Since it's monk-esque AC there's no armor or shield bonus barring spell use. On the matter of saves its doing better though with effective 22 in each, and this is one of its strengths.

The obvious idea of stealing a paladin's Cha to saves is clear, and will certainly make the mimic hardy in the saving throw department. However, that's one class feature out of a limited supply (at 20th they can have up to 3, but for most of their game their running 2 or 1, I'm gonna focus on 2 because of this). You've managed to make yourself into a magic resistant tank but you're still a monk if you're not mimicking, and you're still susceptible to a punch in the face. Because your saves were already pretty good, I find choosing the Paladin's Cha to saves to be a bit of a waste unless you really need to not fail a save for some reason.

Superior choices would be grabbing class features which are utility, or scale (such as sneak attack or the dreaded spellcasting). On the matter of spellcasting I knew I had a time bomb there, which is why they have the hard restriction on 20 spell levels worth a day. That won't leave them open for many 9th level spell tricks to pull off, while still letting them do so. It's probably to their advantage to choose one common-use class feature (I dunno, eldritch blast maybe) and one nuke/utility (spellcasting).

Course, talking about this has made me discover one thing I didn't answer; handling wildshape. I will think how to handle that since that's also something I think I should give a hard limit on. Also, I need to figure out how it works with fighter bonus feats, I'm not sure yet and I will have to answer that soon.

The other issue when it comes to stealing class features and optimizing for them in comparison to others comes via feat selection. The barbarian knows what he does and puts all his feats into rage things or things which otherwise aid barbarians. You, however, must choose to specialize in barbarian themes, or wizard themes, or such, or not specialize at all. What I mean is, the cleric is gonna always have his divine metamagic and turning feats at hand while you either need to have it only useful when you have the ability to, or forgo that and act as a vanilla cleric (assuming you even qualify, since you don't actually have said class features, many feats are barred from you).

Good discussion, I shall think deeper. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 10:45, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

After having loooked at ways to break it, I will admit it looks solid, I am a little wary of the 30 in all stats at level 20. And I think the mimic class ability is fun and good (when one only takes the official classes or the dm and player toghter talks about homebrewed abilities) it realy have grown on me under the discussion.

But the best part of this class is its super teamplay aspect which might end up kicking the dm in the nuts (copy each top level ability of each member in the team, if used to max stradegi gain it could blow the lid of any encounter) Wildmage ^Talk 18:14, 12 September 2013 (UTC)