View source for Talk:Mystic Blade (3.5e Class)

== Balance Point ==

Is this seriously a Rogue BP? It doesn't look all that impressive after the first couple of levels (where it gets color spray so it's okay). [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:08, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

:I'm really not very well-versed with the balance points (it's just my best guess). Someone on the old Wiki actually said it was overpowered, but I can't help but be skeptical given Ghostwheel's support and now this. Would fighter be more appropriate? - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 14:34, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

::After having reviewed the Balance Points, I'm somewhat in a bind as to what BP this would fall into. It seems to me as competitive as an SRD Bard, which falls under the rogue BP, and probably stronger than the Barbarian (fighter BP). I thought the Enhance Weapon ability was what set it apart, perhaps even making it abuse-worthy. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 14:46, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

:::I don't think this guy is as good as a Bard who is actually using his one level-appropriate ability (Charm). Strikes me as a Fighter balance. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 15:05, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

::::Sounds good. I'll change it. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 15:11, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

::::: I disagree for a couple of reasons; first, [[Sublime_Singer_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)|bards]] can easily be pretty damn high on the balance list, being at around the same level as sorcerers (or wizards if you give weight to 22d6 extra damage on all melee attacks allies make). Next, compare it more to the duskblade, a class that's firmly at rogue level, rather than the bard. And the Mystic Blade has a number of incredible spells--for example, he has Haste which could let him become a [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327 swiftblade], a class that could fit it very well. Alongside it are Displacement, Fly, Greater Invis, Stoneskin, and a number of other incredibly buffs that can be used spontaneously depending on the situation you're in. These spells are INCREDIBLE, and shouldn't be underestimated. Finally, it gets a few bonus feats, which are a boon to any meleer--and they don't even need to be fighter bonus feats. All in all, definitely a rogue-level class. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 18:39, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

::::::Forgive me for my sincere lack of knowledge on the bard (I never really saw the appeal of it personally). Anyway, given both arguments here I guess I'll leave it as is until we come to an agreement (although I'm not much of a factor here , given that the amount of knowledge both of you possess concerning BP's far exceed my own). - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 22:13, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

:::::::I know I was perhaps the most concerned with the power of the Mystic Blade on the other wiki (at least judging by the talk page). Looking at level 7, a Mystic Blade can cast Quicken Spell(Haste). This is also possible for a 13th level Wizard to do, but they have to burn a 7th level spell to do it. Combine that with "Enhance Weapon +1 (choose "Bane" for the monster you are fighting)", which as far as I can tell stacks on already magical weapons (is that right?), and he is a serious threat. Say he were to "Touch of steel" Scorching Ray(Ranged Touch counts as touch, right?) through his weapon (using his 6th level ability and his first 2nd level spell of the day) to add another 8d6 damage to his now magical attack. Since he is hasted, what is to stop him from doing that again? Suddenly he is making 2 attacks, both of which are [weapon damage]+8d6(ToS:SR)+2d6(EW:Bane). Oh wait, he has the good BAB, so he's making multiple attacks per round. Here are his actions for the round:
:::::::*Free action: Quicken spell (Haste)
:::::::*Std Action: Attack with a Bane, Scorching-Ray-Touch-of-Steel attack
:::::::*Haste Std Action: Attack with a Bane, Scorching-Ray-Touch-of-Steel attack again
:::::::*Move, or keep attacking with your other attacks.
:::::::Granted, that round used up a ton of his resources (his only level 3 spell, 2/3 of his level 2 spells). Naturally, this entire "optimization" goes out the window if Ranged Touch spells don't count as Touch spells, but the article doesn't make any mention of that, so I would have allowed it. Now I'm not saying he's as strong as a wizard, this guy is toast against a wizard, but he's at least as balanced as a rogue. Or have I made some incredible mistake in either reading his abilities or understanding the basic mechanics of DnD(This is very possible)?--[[User:The Badger|The Badger]] 21:22, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

::::::::No, I don't think you're mistaken. I had meant to change it after I made the changes described below, but I never got around to it. It's done now. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 21:45, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::I usually stay out of mechanics discussions because I end up looking like crazy grandpa is off his rocker again. So, to start here, I'll link ''[[SRD:Haste|haste]]''. Badger, you're probably thinking of 3.0e haste, which granted extra actions. 3.5e doesn't, instead opting for "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." As for ''[[SRD:Scorching Ray|scorching ray]]'' and [[Mystic Blade (3.5e Class)#Touch of Steel|Touch of Steel]] (which states "This attack is rolled as a normal attack roll, not as a melee touch attack."), it feels like the author's intent is to exclude ranged touch attacks. Anyways, that's all I got, carry on. --[[User:Ganteka Future|Ganteka Future]] 21:48, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::Upon reading that, I'll agree with Ganteka, but I see how that part is confusing. I'll get it fixed, but the BP needed to be changed anyway. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 21:51, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::Mmk, so I had the wrong semantics for my theoretical attack round, but the actions still stand, right? I should have changed "Haste Std Action" to "Hastened Action", but he's still making that extra attack. As for ranged/melee touches, I always understood it as ranged was "melee+optional distance", seeing it pretty much as "You can do this attack from 30 feet away if you want to" and as a tactical decision to avoid melee combat. I could understand an argument saying you can't do melee touch attacks ranged (that is obvious, unless you have spectral hand working), but I wouldn't understand the argument saying "you can't cast ranged touch attacks while touching the target"--[[User:The Badger|The Badger]] 21:57, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::::Actually, since ''haste'' only gives you an extra attack if you make a full-attack action, you could make up to your maximum number of attacks plus one but not have the option to move afterwards. 

::::::::::::One more thing that I realized I missed the first time is that when it said that the enhancement bonus stacks I just meant if you have a ''+2'' weapon already you can make it the equivalent a ''+2 flaming'' or a ''+3'', not a ''+1 bane''. The intent was that you can change your Enhance Weapon bonus on the fly, but not any other enhancements (those are fixed). So by that logic, you would have to wait until level 10 before you can add ''bane'' to everything.

::::::::::::As for ranged touch attacks being used in melee, I don't think the rules have anything against it, but it seems aesthetically wrong to me. Anything that's a ray, for example, seems to me like it should move across space (even if the space is less than five feet) and not be able to be transmitted via direct contact. Most ranged touch attacks operate under a similar premise, so I think I like restricting it to melee. But the great thing about homebrew is that it can be edited in campaign use, so anyone who wants to include ranged touch attacks will hear no argument from me. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 22:21, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::::Yeah, the Enhance weapon was one of my biggest areas of confusion. I assume all the standard rules for making magical weapons still apply, right? In order to get a special quality on a weapon normally, the weapon must have an enchantment of +1. Does this requirement still exist for "Enhance Weapon"? My original theoretical weapon was a +1 longsword (inherently), which could become a +2, or a +1 Bane, correct? If my weapon was non-magical, is my only option at "Enhance Weapon +1" to make it a +1 weapon, or do I have access to the "Special Qualities" (like Bane)? Since the weapon loses enhancements when it leaves the Mystic Blade's hands, does that rule out "Dancing" as a special quality that can be taken? Logically, all of these are ultimately up to the DM. However, I have a Mystic Blade in the party I DM, I'd like to keep him in the spirit in which the Mystic Blade was written. I do understand where you're coming from with the Melee touch vs. Ranged touch attack, by the way, it's just not how I would (or did) implement it.--[[User:The Badger|The Badger]] 22:46, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::::The way I see it, Enhance Weapon can make any mundane weapon magical so long as he's holding it any weapon thy mystic blade holds can have at least a +1 enhancement. I actually was not aware that a regular enhancement bonus was required, so I think yes, your only option should be to make it magical since you could be bypassing the requirement that an item be masterwork in order to be magical. I sort of made the class under the assumption that there would already be a magic weapon in most characters' hands by level 3 (since shadows are CR 3 and a magic weapon is necessary to fight them effectively). I suppose it also rules out dancing as an option, but I get the impression that with full BAB the weapon would usually be much more useful, so that restriction is minimal as far as I'm concerned. BTW, bane requires a +2 enhancement, so it can't be added to your weapon until level 10 regardless of any previous enhancements it may have. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 23:20, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
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